Episode 567
with Jamie Loftus, José Olivarez, and Danielle Ponder
Writer and podcaster Jamie Loftus dives into her New York Times bestselling book Raw Dog: The Naked Truth About Hot Dogs, a travelog on the cultural and historical significance of the American sausage; poet José Olivarez explores the lexicon of love in two languages in his newest collection Promises of Gold; and R&B/Soul vocalist Danielle Ponder performs "So Long" from her debut album Some of Us Are Brave. Plus, host Luke Burbank and announcer Elena Passarello go on some hypothetical road trips.
Jamie Loftus
Emmy award-nominated writer, comedian, and podcaster
Emmy award-nominated writer and comedian Jamie Loftus may still have three of her baby teeth, but now she also has Raw Dog: The Naked Truth About Hot Dogs, her debut book that is part travelogue, part culinary history, all capitalist critique AND all good! Before her deep-dive into the history of American meats, she wrote and starred in her own web series for Comedy Central, and regularly works on viral videos for Super Deluxe. As for her comedy, it often borders on performance art: she has dated an American Girl doll, sold “Shrek nudes” on Etsy to raise money for Planned Parenthood, and attempted to eat a copy of David Foster Wallace’s Infinite Jest. Furthermore, she is the host and creator of three critically-acclaimed iHeartRadio podcasts: My Year in Mensa, Lolita Podcast, and Aack Cast. Along with fellow comedian Caitlin Durante, she co-hosts The Bechdel Cast, a weekly podcast about the representation of women in film. Website • Twitter • Instagram
José Olivares
Award-winning poet and podcaster
José Olivarez is a literary star on the rise and the son of Mexican immigrants. His debut book of poems, Citizen Illegal, was a finalist for the PEN/Jean Stein Award and a winner of the 2018 Chicago Review of Books Poetry Prize. It was named a top book of 2018 by the Adroit Journal, NPR, and the New York Public Library. Along with Felicia Chavez and Willie Perdomo, he co-edited the poetry anthology The BreakBeat Poets Vol. 4: LatiNext, and his latest collection of poetry Promises of Gold, translated into Spanish by poet David Ruano, has already been described as "visceral and moving." When he's not writing, he cohosts the poetry podcast The Poetry Gods. Website • Instagram • Twitter
Danielle Ponder
Genre-defying singer-songwriter and social justice advocate
Bravery can take many forms. For singer-songwriter Danielle Ponder, it took the shape of leaving her successful day job working in the public defender’s office to devote herself full-time to sharing her powerful voice with the world. The sixth of seven children, Ponder had always been musical, but she chose to pursue a career in law after her brother received a 20-year sentence due to a “three strikes” law. Still, music was never far from her heart. Written and recorded over three years, the singer-songwriter’s mesmerizing debut album, Some of Us Are Brave, is a refreshingly original, shiver-inducing mix of pop, R&B, blues, rock, and moody trip-hop topped by Ponder’s celestial voice. Described as "a singular talent on a meteoric rise” (SPIN) and following her much lauded performances at SXSW and showcases in New York and Los Angeles, Ponder continues to successfully tour. She is among the 30 new artists in YouTube’s Foundry Class of 2022, a global development program for independent music, supporting indie artists at all stages of their careers through annual artist development classes and ongoing release support campaigns. Alumni including Arlo Parks, beabadoobee, Dua Lipa, Clairo, ROSALÍA, girl in red, Kenny Beats and more.
Website • Instagram • Twitter
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Luke Burbank: Hey, Elena.
Elena Passarello: Ciao, Luke, how's it going?
Luke Burbank: Oh, my goodness. Are you really that person? Now, I know you've been in Italy.
Elena Passarello: Ciao, ciao .
Luke Burbank: Ciao, Elena. Welcome back from being under the Tuscan Sun. Are you ready to do a little station location identification examination?
Elena Passarello: Si, si, si, si.
Luke Burbank: Okay. This is the part where of the show where I quiz Elena on a place in America where we are on the radio. She's got to guess where I am talking about. Okay, This place was where Scotch tape was invented. Hmm.
Elena Passarello: Definitely a place with a lot of people who emigrated from Scotland.
Luke Burbank: I don't think of this city as being associated overwhelmingly with folks from Scotland. Speaking, though, of which F. Scott Fitzgerald was born in an apartment in this city and then later wrote the book, The Side of Paradise in this Place.
Elena Passarello: I do believe you mean F Scotch Fitzgerald which you could make a joke about that about his, his love of liquor here. But we won't do that.
Luke Burbank: I feel like I really teed that one up for you, Scott. And the Scotch, you sound like. You know, where. Where are we talking about?
Elena Passarello: Well, like all card carrying English majors, I know that F. Scott Fitzgerald was born in Saint Paul, Minnesota.
Luke Burbank: Absolutely right. Where we are on the radio on K N O W, Minnesota Public Radio there in the beautiful Twin Cities. So shout out to them. Are you ready to do this radio show?
Elena Passarello: Let's do it.
Luke Burbank: All right. Take it away.
Elena Passarello: From PRX, it's LIVE WIRE! This week, podcaster and writer Jamie Loftus.
Jamie Loftus: I think it's like a nasty hot dog that will make you think like surely someone needs to answer for their crimes.
Elena Passarello: And poet Jose Olivarez.
Jose Olivarez: I want to write poems for the people that don't usually get them because we tend to think of poetry as something that is reserved for the romantic interest in our lives.
Elena Passarello: With music from Danielle Ponder and our fabulous house band. I'm your announcer Elena Passarello, and now the host of Live Wire, Luke Burbank.
Luke Burbank: Thank you so much, Elena Passarello. Thanks to everyone tuning in from all over the country, including the Twin Cities out there listening to K N O W Radio. We have a great show in store for you this week, of course. We asked Live Wire listeners a question in honor of one of our guests experienced Jamie Loftus, who wrote this book called Raw Dog about hot Dogs. She drove all over the country eating hot dogs in different parts of America. The question we're asking listeners this week is what's your ideal road trip? We're going to have those responses coming up in a minute. First, though, it's time for the best news we heard all week. This is our little segment at the top of the program, reminding us all that there is some good news happening out there in the world. Elena,what's the best news you've heard all week?
Elena Passarello: Well, I know we're talking about road trips this week, and I would like to take a road trip south of here to San Jose, California, because of something that happened recently. There's a gentleman named Dr. Robert Moore. He was a dean at San Jose State for many years. He's long since retired. And Dr. Robert Moore recently became a centenarian. He's now a member of the 100 year old club. Woo hoo! And his daughter, Allison, wanted to do something special for him. And she knows he is an avowed dog lover. So she got on next door and asked her neighbors to walk their dogs past his house at a designated time so he could enjoy those dogs as like a fun community birthday present.
Luke Burbank: Uh huh. What was probably like ten dog showed up, 12 dogs.
Elena Passarello: She was hoping for 20. So kind of ambitious, I mean, I think. But it turns out that 250 dogs showed up. That next door ask went viral. The dogs showed up with their owners in costume. Some of them had on tuxedos, Some of them had on cowboy hats. One lady just really wanted to come. She didn't have a dog, so she just brought a stuffed dog, wearing like a fuchsia fedora. They brought cupcakes and flowers and signs and just filed past his house for what I'm assuming took at least an hour, if not more. And Allison says that her dad pet every single dog that passed by, which is so cute. I love the story. I love the idea of this happening. And I'm not the only one. Actually, our listener, John Mok, actually told us about this story. So thanks for letting us know about that, John.
Luke Burbank: Yeah. Hat tip. John. Thank you. My best news I saw this week also involves somebody who, well, they're listed in the headlines as a granddad. Granddad wins gold in arm wrestling, but he's only 53. Which the older I get. Elena, the younger granddads get. Yes, it would appear because this is the story of a guy named Mark Walden. Mark Walden, like too many people, became very ill during COVID. He actually contracted COVID and then he it turned into pneumonia. He was living in the UK. And while he there was a period of time that he was kind of not sure if he was going to make it. He was very, very sick. And luckily he pulled through. And as he was convalescing and just trying to kind of pass his time while he was still in recovery, he started watching a lot of competitive arm wrestling videos on his computer and he got really inspired. I guess he was always like a pretty strong person. He'd always gone to the gym. I've seen a picture of him. He's a big guy.
Elena Passarello: He's a buff Grandad.
Luke Burbank: He's a real buff granddad. You might even call him a grand zaddy. I don't know. He decided if he, you know, made a full recovery, he was going to get into competitive arm wrestling and so he did. He got better. And then he started entering these arm wrestling competitions and he was losing all the time because even though he was a big, strong person, he didn't have the specific muscle groups like in his hand and forearm that you need to be really, really top level at arm wrestling. And so he said he studied those muscle groups and started going to the gym to just work out those muscles. And he says the hardest part of his training was not even physical. It was kind of mental because he felt very silly at the gym, I think doing some kind of pinky press.
Elena Passarello: Yeah, I'm imagining all of his fingers having little sweat bands on, you know, like that, like while they do like, like thumb squats or whatever.
Luke Burbank: Exactly. But he, I guess he overcame the embarrassment because he recently won two gold medals at the IFA European Championships in Finland. Wow. So his dream that he that he sort of had while he was just, you know, not doing well with COVID has now come true. He is a European champion. He dedicates all of it to his grandkids. He's got a daughter named Grace, which is a great name. It's my daughter's name as well. And she calls her grandad the Hulk. What does that like to grow up calling your granddad the Hulk like? That's a far cry from how we regarded Farnham burbank Yeah, Back in the day.
Elena Passarello: We called my grandad Bepaw, which I don't think well, it doesn't mean anything, but it definitely doesn't mean Hulk.
Luke Burbank: Yeah, Bepaw, you know, or Pepaw or those, those are more Grandadish names, right? And then the Hulk. Anyway, the amazing accomplishments of Mark Walden a buff Grandad at 53. That is the best news that I heard all week. All right. Let's invite our first guest on over to the show. She's an Emmy nominated writer and comedian whose work The New York Times describes as unexpectedly gripping explorations of niche subjects. Some of those niche subjects include Mensa, which is the high IQ society. Although if you're in that I didn't have to tell you the book Lolita, which she pointed out, has been misunderstood by a lot of people over time. And then also she took on the comic strip, Cathy, who was actually doing a lot more than just saying, Ach, and I'm a chocoholic. Her latest project is The New York Times best selling book Raw Dog The Naked Truth About Hot Dogs. Take a listen to this. It's our conversation with Jamie Loftus here on Livewire. Hi, Jamie. Welcome back to the show.
Jamie Loftus: I'm so happy to be back.
Luke Burbank: It turns out that you're not only an amazing podcaster, you're an amazing writer. Was there a specific hot dog that you were having or like a moment where you thought, yes, this this should nay this must be a book about hot dogs?
Jamie Loftus: I think it's like a nasty hot dog that will make you think like, surely someone needs to answer for their crimes. Because my my dad, he's, like, sick of me repeating this in public. But he would do these really gnarly, like, boiled hot dogs that was very like. Dad's around right now and he's going, he's about to make an attempt. And so I always, like, associated this nasty, mushy meat, tube, with, like: We did it. We're a family. I don't know. I really love talking and thinking about hot dogs because it is like even when it's disgusting, it always feels very personal because most people start eating them when they're very young. And it can be a very, very gross food that people will like absolutely die for because it reminds them of something important to them.
Luke Burbank: Can you explain what the parameters of Hot Dog Summer 2021 were? You went on this road trip to just kind of experience different hot dogs in different parts of the country? And also, you don't have a driver's license yet? (No.)
Elena Passarello: Or a pet sitter.
Luke Burbank: Right. Is like step one of an epic road trip would be driver's license.
Jamie Loftus: No, you just need a boyfriend and then.
Luke Burbank: Okay.
Jamie Loftus: You don't need a driver's license. But yeah, no, my. My ex and myself and our both of our animals. I got hired to write this book shortly after we had been vaccinated, and about like, a week into the trip, the Delta variant really started kicking up, and it was like we were already kind of stuck, you know? And so it was it was a very, I think like I didn't let myself process it at the time because it's such a silly reason to be outside of your home is to eat 200 hot dogs. But I was contractually obligated to eat 200 hot dogs and it was like, we have to do it. We have to do it safely and we have to do it together. And I cannot drive the car.
Luke Burbank: I think a lot of these I think a lot of these public radio types and honestly, myself included, Jamie, are are kind of thinking like aren't hot dogs terrible Like on every level for us, for the animals. How do you a socially conscious entertainer and writer Jamie Loftus square all of that.
Jamie Loftus: Well, it's they're definitely bad for you.
Luke Burbank: But I mean, they're worse for the pig, right?
Elena Passarello: Oh, yeah.
Jamie Loftus: Arguably harder to be. Yeah. I mean, I think that the animals are always going to have sort of the worst deal in context, although there are an increasing number of vegan and vegetarian options that don't suck. I swear.
Luke Burbank: I've I've wandered the earth looking for like a plant based hot dog that has the snap. You talk about the snap a lot in this book.
Jamie Loftus: I would love to meet the person who can replicate animal skin breaking in your mouth with a plant because that's what it is.
Luke Burbank: I'm a simple man and I want someone to make a plant based thing that reminds me of snapping through the innards of an animal.
Jamie Loftus: I just. I truly think that a vegan that could accomplish that is a real sicko. It's a weird mission. But yeah, I mean, it's I tried to say at the beginning of the book, like vegans are correct, vegetarians are correct. Meat consumption is always going to be some sort of mental and ethical compromise. And so when I was researching how hot dogs are made, it was about 2020 and 2021, the meatpacking industry was going through such a horrible time during lockdown, especially because of the Trump executive order to keep meatpacking plants open, which essentially that executive order, it was revealed in late 2021, possibly early 2022, that was like drafted by the CEOs of Tyson and Smithfield.
Luke Burbank: Hold on, let me sit down. Let me sit more down. You're telling me a major agribusiness had a direct line to the Trump White House?
Jamie Loftus: Yes, they did. But it's so I mean, it's like that's not shocking. And then you read about the individual cases of how individual workers and families were affected by that. And it's stuff that that is like truly sickening to have to face on a very human level. And that's not to speak of how they treat the animals. And so I think like I had to reach a point where I was really hoping by the end I'm like, I'm going to be such a good person. By the time I finish writing this book, I am never going to eat meat again like I am going to be. I'm going to go clear, which I didn't. And I still don't really know why I think that. Like I've never not eaten meat. And it was really I found it pretty impossible to stop. And so what I have been trying to do is to just not eat from Tyson in Smithfield and try to eat more ethically when I can.
Luke Burbank: All right. Yeah, well. I guess we'll say goodbye to sponsors Tyson and Smithfield. We had a great run. Yeah. All right. We got to take a quick break here on live wire. We're going to be back with Jamie Loftus. Her new book is Raw Dog. We'll be back in just a moment. Stay with us. Hey, welcome back to Live Wire from PRX. I'm Luke Burbank there with Elena Passarello. We are at the beautiful Alberta Rose Theater right here in Portland, Oregon. And we're talking to Jamie Loftus about her new book, Raw Dog: The Naked Truth about Hot Dogs. Let's get into the five hot dogs you can purchase easily in heaven. This is basically the Mount Rushmore of hot dogs that you lay out in the book. And we'll just kind of go through them. Rapid Fire number one on the list appears to be the Costco hot dog. What is what's so special about the.
Jamie Loftus: I would like to stress easily purchased. They're not the best hot dogs, right? They're just the ones that you can definitely have.
Luke Burbank: Most available.
Jamie Loftus: So Costco, Costco, everyone is always losing their minds every six months about how the CEO of Costco threatened to kill someone.
Luke Burbank: This this email. Right that comes up all the time. It was that. Jim Sinegal I think the saying he's going to like fire the guy off the price of the hot dog and soda go up by $0.05 or something.
Jamie Loftus: He says he's going to effing murder him, which is a great story, but I always like people, always. And that to me, and I was like, You got to consider the hero of this story is a billionaire CEO of Costco.
Luke Burbank: I also admit that story was published in like Costco Connections, which is the newsletter for Costco.
Jamie Loftus: Which is the whole thing with like, I mean, hot dogs. It's like all sorts of marketing where you're like, they're making it up and you're circulating it. Like you just found out Keanu Reeves was a nice guy for the first time. Like, I just I have higher expectations of Internet users, which is on me.
Luke Burbank: Hmm. What about the. What about the Home Depot hot dog?
Jamie Loftus: Okay, Depot dog. That's something special. So I don't actually know if do does the Pacific Northwest have diaper dogs?
Luke Burbank: When I was growing up, they did. And the way that that little kind of four year area. You know what I mean? Like you're in the Home Depot but you're not all the way in would smell like the hotdog cart.
Jamie Loftus: It's so good. So they're independently owned hot dog carts outside of Home Depot. Why? Shut up. And it's great. There is like certain areas where, like, we do taco stands, we do like there's different kinds. There's heroes and stuff like that. But like depot dogs, no matter where you go, everyone is always so thrilled. And like there have been state representatives that have spoken out when Depot Dog stands have closed because Home Depot after a while was like, what is going on? Like, we're not getting a cut of this. And then public officials were like, You cannot shut down that hot dog stand. My aunt loves those hot dogs.
Luke Burbank: What about hot dog on a stick? They also make the list.
Jamie Loftus: They do. They may because it's an easily gettable hot dog. Hot dog on a stick. You know, it's fine.
Luke Burbank: It's that were they wear the hats.
Jamie Loftus: That's where they wear the sexy little outfits. Yeah, it's a weird one. It's just like a sexy little hot dog that comes out as sexy, a little muscle beach and you eat it and you're like, Nah, I'm fine.
Luke Burbank: And then you have Auntie Anne's.
Jamie Loftus: Yes, Auntie Anne's: fascinating. If no one knows the story of Auntie Anne's- it is so wild. She grew up in an Amish community in Pennsylvania. She and a number of women in her community were survivors of sexual abuse from a priest in their community. No one saw this twist coming. I swear this ends it with a hot dog. I have to cut the tension in the room because it is very scary. So. So there is an abusive person in their community. They speak to each other about it. They force this priest out of the community and Auntie Anne and her husband decide they want to start a community center for women who have survived sexual abuse, but they don't have any money. So Ante and decides she's going to start making pretzels. And now she is a pretzel kajillionaire. And so and then she did speak at the Republican National Convention. So, you know, it's I yeah, I know what your politics are.
Elena Passarello: But it's hot dogs like you got an American story. Yeah.
Luke Burbank: You buy the ticket, you take the ride. Yeah. We're talking to Jamie Loftus about her book: Raw Dog. Let's talk about a place that you visited that I used to also go to often about two in the morning when I lived in Washington, D.C., and that would be Ben's Chili Bowl, home of the half smoke.
Jamie Loftus: Yes.
Luke Burbank: And what what did you think of the hot dog? And also, why was that place of particular interest to you?
Jamie Loftus: Oh, I mean, that business is fascinating for a number of reasons. It's one of the few black owned hot dog businesses that I covered throughout my travels. There's not many, especially ones that have as huge an impact. There's all of this lore, like DC based lore connected to Ben's Chili Bowl, where allegedly MLK. Began writing the I Have a Dream speech. There's a lot...
Luke Burbank: You can't say that about an Aunti Anne's. No.
Jamie Loftus: There's, like, all. Like, like Stokely Carmichael was said to have gone there a lot. Like there's all of these famous civil rights figures that would hang out at Ben's Chili Bowl, eating a delicious hot dog that will make you poop so much and like having the time of their lives and they're like, they're. I just think it's like really wonderful when hot dog business owners become local celebrities because almost every sitting president, I think since that business has been open, it's like a part of like, okay, I got voted into office, I have to go to Ben's Chili Bowl to take a picture with this like chili soaked hot dog. And I think that that's great. I also notice across the country, Jimmy Fallon has been to every hot dog place in the entire world.
Luke Burbank: Because there's a picture of him.
Jamie Loftus: Yeah, I was just like, go to work. I don't know, like really bizarre.
Luke Burbank: I thought you were going to say, like, Guy Fieri or something. I'll be in a random place sometime and just look up, and he'll just be there with, like, his oakley's on backwards, just, like, approving of this gas station bathroom I'm in or something. Like. Like, man, he's been everywhere.
Jamie Loftus: There is a place I went to in North Carolina that I don't know what the theming of the restaurant was before Guy Fieri went there, because it seemed like the theme was Guy Fieri's been here. He was everywhere.
Luke Burbank: You also went to the Nathan's famous Hot Dog Drive. Fans of people dunking their hot dogs in water where they eat them, which is for some reason, the part that really, really upsets me about that whole process is that, you know, that's the most effective way to eat. You know, 50 hotdogs, right, is to dunk them in water first. Yes. What did you make of that whole spectacle?
Jamie Loftus: Oh, I hated it at first. I intentionally, like, went into that pretty like, you know, raw. I didn't know very much. I was like, I'm just going to let this experience wash over me and see how I feel at the end, because it's a ten minute long competition. And I just felt my feelings change in real time where it starts. And it's like Joey Chestnut wins every year and you know, he like dunk, split, chomp, chomp, swallow. He ate 76 in 10 minutes. No, you should be cheering there. But like, it was like I started off so not on his side. I was like, this is this should be illegal. And then at some point in the middle, I was like, no, this is a sport. And and then the guy on ESPN, I will never forget it. Like you can check. The 2021 broadcast said that Joey Chestnut eats hot dogs the way Ernest Hemingway wrote novels.
Luke Burbank: Yes.
Elena Passarello: And with no adjectives.
Luke Burbank: That guy, the guy who announces them. He's this PR guy from New York and he, like, inherited this little kind of not particularly notable, like hot dog eating competition. And then in I think he wanted to be a writer. Right. And so he now gets out all of his sort of writerly instincts in how he describes the competitive eaters.
Jamie Loftus: It's so intense. Yeah. It's this guy, George Shea, who I think is made his living kind of being like, I'm the Vince McMahon of hot dogs. Yeah. And you're like, Well, I hate that. Like, I, don't want that, but it's like it has the showmanship of Vince McMahon and also a lot of the things that people hate about Vince McMahon, because there's he has this whole history, as does this contest of really making and breaking like lives have been ruined. I'm a huge fan of Takara Kobayashi, the greatest hotdog eater to ever do it. And he was like, really, really screwed over by by George and by Major League eating for reasons that were.
Luke Burbank: That's the name of the league. Oh, funny.
Jamie Loftus: Yeah, it is called Major League Eating. And we can laugh about that. But Kobayashi was this amazing eater who came over from Japan, popularized the hot dog eating contest, is a huge reason that it was on ESPN and all this other stuff. And then once there was a white American champion in the form of Joey Chestnut to present a challenge, George and Major Lee Eating did everything they could to make Kobayashi's deals worse and worse and worse until he was essentially forced out of the sport. I feel so strongly about it. And not to mention that the women's contest is still broadcast on ESPN3, which makes me want to shove my hand in a garbage disposal. Like, why is that?
Elena Passarello: And Shea is the one who made it split by gender. It used to be that women would be in the hot dog eating contest along with the man race.
Jamie Loftus: Yeah, everyone eats food. It's so weird that it's split like that. But yeah, that was an intentional decision by George in 2011 to split the contest. And originally the women competitors were told at a Tea party he threw for them because he's a bit evil, so he threw them. This Tea Party said, You're going to be on ESPN3 now. The men's prize is still $10,000. Yours is $2500 now. And here's this new pink belt we got you right.
Elena Passarello: The belt is pink. Right?
Jamie Loftus: It's technically the Pepto-Bismol belt, but it was still a huge like.
Luke Burbank: I mean, what I think is so interesting about this book and even about this conversation we're having, Jamie, is that this the hot dog seems like this kind of just silly thing that, you know, we consume mindlessly and yet we've already touched into like two or three really big cultural things around gender and and class and all of the stuff that's tied up in it because it's so sort of inherently American at this point. It also brings with it all of the weirdness of this country, right?
Jamie Loftus: Yeah, it's a it's like a symbol. And we're told that it's a very American symbol. But like, why who did that? And what does an American like an American symbol? Is that a good thing?
Luke Burbank: Right.
Jamie Loftus: Do we have to feel good about that? And I tried to explore it from every way that I could because I love hot dogs. Still, they're the best. I can and have talked about them for hours on end. And I will continue to. But there's also so many things about, you know, hot dogs that are connected to. Yeah, like systems of exploitation and oppression in America. And also people have sex on the Wienermobile. So there's a lot going on.
Luke Burbank: Jamie Loftus, everyone in the book is Raw Dog. That was Jamie Loftis right here on Live Wire, recorded at the Alberta Rose Theater here in Portland. Her new book, Raw Dog: The Naked Truth About Hot Dogs, is available now. Live Wire is brought to you in part by Alaska Airlines. Alaska Airlines offers the most nonstop from the West Coast, including destinations like Hawaii, Palm Springs and San Francisco. And as a member of the OneWorld alliance, Alaska Airlines can connect you to more than 1000 destinations worldwide with their global partners. Learn more at Alaska Air dot com. This is Live Wire. Our next guests debut book of Poetry. Citizen Illegal was named a top book by NPR and The New York Times. His latest collection of poetry, Promises of Gold, is a bilingual exploration of love in all of its forms. It's truly beautiful. Let's take a listen to this. It's Jose Olivarez at the Alberto Rose Theater here in Portland. Jose, welcome to the show.
Jose Olivarez: Thank you for having me.
Luke Burbank: Thank you for traveling all the way from Jersey today to be here in Beaverton.
Jose Olivarez: You know, all in a day's work.
Luke Burbank: Yeah, man. You write in the forward of your new book that you wanted this to be a book of love poems for your homies, you know, kind of your non romantic friends. But then it didn't exactly turn out that way, what happened.
Jose Olivarez: So I had the idea for the book before the pandemic started. And so in my mind, I'm like, This is a pretty straightforward book of poems. I want to write poems for the people that don't usually get them, because we tend to think of poetry as something that is reserved for the romantic interest in our lives, right? My friend Nate says that we usually go to poetry in times where someone's either getting married or buried, right? And so in my mind, I'm like, I want to kind of fill in the gaps. And then when the pandemic happened, all of my language became a lot darker. And I realized how much fear I was living with and how much uncertainty I mean, and anxiety was just kind of filling my poetry. And so the poems themselves are kind of aiming at this type of love, while a lot of times landing in uncertainty and anxiety and all of those other emotions.
Luke Burbank: I'm curious about your growing up years and words and poetry and things like that. Were those in your life growing up in it? Was Illinois.
Jose Olivarez: There? Yes, I grew up in Calumet City, Illinois, in the south suburbs of Chicago. And also my parents are immigrants. They came from Jalisco, Mexico. So English is my second language. And so that means for a large part of my life, I was often very quiet because I didn't want to mess up the language and have people laugh at me, right? I didn't want to mispronounce anything. And so I was used to kind of living in that quietness and but I was always listening like I loved language. Even when I couldn't fully understand English. I loved the way my peers would kind of like flip words and make up phrases on the fly. And so what poetry allowed for me was it gave me a chance to think about like, do I really want to be quiet or is this quiet something that has kind of been put upon me? Right? And so when I was kind of asked to write my own poems, I was like, It turns out I have all of this language that I've just been kind of storing and thinking about for all of these years.
Luke Burbank: Can we actually hear something from the book? I was hoping that we could hear Ode to Tortillas.
Jose Olivarez: Yeah, absolutely. So this poem is called Ode to Tortillas. It was inspired by eating tortillas. It's deep, you know. I mean, poetry. How does it happen? Who knows?
Jose Olivarez: Ode to Tortillas. There's two ways to be a Mexican writer that we've discovered so far. You can be the Mexican writer who writes about tortillas, or you can be the Mexican writer who writes about croissants instead of the tortillas on their plate. Can you be a mexican writer if you're allergic to corn? There's two ways to be a Mexican writer that are true and tested. You can write about migration or you can write about migration. Can you be a Mexican writer if you never migrated? If your family never migrated? There's two ways to be a Mexican writer. You can translate from Spanish or you can translate to Spanish, or you can refuse to translate all together. There's only one wound in the Mexican writer's imagination, and it's the wound of the chancla. It's the wound of birria being sold out at the taco truck. It's the wound of too many dolores and not enough dollars. It can be argued that these are all chanclasos. Even death is a chanclaso. There's only one miracle gifted to Mexicans, and it is the miracle of never running out of cheap beer. It's the miracle of never running out of bad jokes. There's infinite ways to eat a tortilla made in the ancient ways by hand and warmed on a comal made with corn or with Taco Bell plastic. They count. What about flour tortillas? Flour tortillas count, if you ask San Antonio, My people, I am poly with the tortillas. You can eat tortillas with your hands or roll them up and dip them in caldo like my mom does. You can eat them with the fork and knife like my boujie cousins do. What? Boujie cousins? I made them up for the purpose of this poem. You can eat tortillas in tacos or warmed up by microwave and drizzled with butter, tortillas con arroz, tortillas con frijoles, tortillas flip by hand or tortillas flipped with the spatula. Tortillas with eggs for breakfast, tortillas fried and sprinkled with sugar for dessert. Hard shell tortillas. Gluten free tortillas for our mixed family. We are still discovering new ways to fold a tortilla, to cut a tortilla up, to transform a tortilla into new worlds, to feed each other with tortillas. My people, if I have children, I will teach them about tortillas, but I'm sure they'll want McDonald's.
Luke Burbank: Jose Olivarez. Reading from Promises of Gold here on Live Wire. You talk about translation in that poem and the layout of this book is really interesting. So it's half of it is in English. Well, it's the same poems, but in English. And then the other side is in Spanish. So you flip it over to read whichever side you're reading. Did you always have that in mind for this book?
Jose Olivarez: That idea came from doing community workshops with bilingual students and bilingual families. And what I would find is, you know, I would give readings to students who were fluent in both English and Spanish, and that would be great. But then I would give workshops that included their parents, and the parents only spoke Spanish. And so I would do those workshops in Spanish, and those were also great. But the parents would come up to me afterwards and they'd be like, You know, we wish we could also read your poems alongside our kids, but we only read in Spanish. And so that for me made me remember that, like, for example, in my education, when I was reading James and the Giant Peach, I could never like bring that story home to my parents and ask them to read along with me or tell them about what I was reading. Right? And so my hope was to offer something that might be useful to those families.
Luke Burbank: That's such a great idea. I, I read the English side and then I actually enjoyed reading some of the Spanish side with my very limited high school Spanish, to just see the way the words work. And it's just such a beautiful thing to see. But there's a note from the translator in the book. I'm curious, you speak Spanish, but did you have the poems translated into Spanish?
Jose Olivarez: Yeah. So I worked with a translator named David Romano Gonzalez, who's a poet from Mexico City. And the reason I worked with the translator is because, like I mentioned, I studied in English. And so that's really the language that I feel most comfortable with being creative and kind of thinking academically and at this point. So when it came time to translate my poems, like I could, I could get a rough estimation, but to do it with the kind of precision in art that poetry requires and the musicality I really needed to kind of lean on David.
Elena Passarello: Do you have conversations with your translator when he's like, working through the book about the things that aren't necessarily there in a word to word translation, like you said, the art?
Jose Olivarez: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the way I mean, you could kind of tell from that poem, right? But I like to write in vernacular and kind of really draw out the music of the everyday. That's something that's really beautiful to me. And so David would have questions because he'd be like, you know, I Googled this word like, Yeah, yeah, boujie. And it's just it's not making sense to me. And so then I have to, like, explain it to him, and he'd be.
Luke Burbank: Remember where it landed on the Spanish side, what we did with Boujie.
Jose Olivarez: De los Primos- los muy muy, I think, is. What we...
Elena Passarello: Los muy muy, nice
Luke Burbank: The poem that we had you read, you talked about there being sort of two ways to be a Mexican poet. Do you feel constrained at times by an expectation about how you might be as a poet who is Mexican-American? Like if you just don't necessarily want to write about something related to that experience on a given day?
Jose Olivarez: Yeah, kind of. I remember. So in my first book, there's a you know, there's also basketball poems, and I remember sometimes being asked by audience members, like in a book that is about Immigrations and its discontents. Why is there a poem about Scottie Pippen? And I'd be like, Because I like Scottie Pippen. Got to be like, Right. It's just so, yeah, I think there's this expectation that those of us who have marginalized identities that we kind of write about it in this one particular way. And for me, I want to think about like how I present those pains. And then also, you know, what I want to share and what I don't. And in that what I might gain by by surprising people and reminding them that even through those moments of struggle and pain, that there's always a lot of joy in song and dance.
Luke Burbank: Yeah. You have a quote in the book from Eduardo Galeano saying Utopia is is on the horizon. And basically you take ten steps towards it and it takes ten steps down the horizon. I'm curious, what keeps you walking?
Jose Olivarez: What keeps me walking is, you know, like a belief that just because things are one way right now, that it doesn't mean that they've always been this way and it doesn't mean that they have to continue to be this way. So I really believe that through imagination we can start to think and really build a world where things are different for us. And you can see those little victories from time to time where even underneath all of this oppressive weight, there's something that we're constructing that we're slowly making bigger and bigger.
Luke Burbank: Could we sneak one more poem? Yeah. Yeah. I would love for folks. Maybe maybe something on the on the shorter side, just for time. But. But anything that you might want to pick.
Jose Olivarez: Yeah. Thank you. I'll read a love poem. This is a poem I wrote for my wife, Erica. It's called Love Poem, Beginning with the Yellow Cab.
Luke Burbank: Hmm.
Jose Olivarez: I ask you, what's the first thing you think about when you see the color yellow in like a real New Yorker? You say yellow cabs, not sunlight or a yellow ribbon tied around a vase of fresh begonias. Yellow cabs honking down Broadway. I still remember the night we first shared a cab. You whispered, honey, whispered lace, whispered chrysanthemum, all of that practice. And it turns out I had never ridden in the cab the right way. Around us, the street lights blurred into yellow ribbons. And when you put your hand on my thigh, it was like I knew for the first time why God gave us stars. Which is why God gave us hands. Maybe God invented yellow for the cabs. So the first time we touched like this, it could be accented in gold.
Elena Passarello: Oh, my goodness. Oh, that's a love poem.
Luke Burbank: Jose Olivarez. Thank you so much for coming on live where the book is. Promises of Gold.
Jose Olivarez: Thank you.
Luke Burbank: So that was Jose Olivarez right here on Live Wire. His latest collection of poetry, Promises of Gold, is available now. I'm Luke Burbank. That's Alina Pazuello right over there. And you are listening to Livewire. We've got to take a quick break. But don't go anywhere. When we get back, we'll get some music from the incredible Danielle Ponder. Stay with us. Welcome back to Livewire from PRX. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarello. As we do each week, of course, we've asked our listeners a question in honor of the book Raw Dog by Jamie Loftus, where she road trips around the country. We asked our listeners, What's your ideal road trip? Elena has been collecting up those responses. Where do you stand?
Elena Passarello: This is an ambitious one from Justin. My goodness. Justin says the ideal road trip involves my besties, impeccable wi-fi, edibles, a karaoke machine, board and card games, mimosas, a lit charcuterie board, and any destination as long as there is a self-driving car.
Luke Burbank: Wow. I think Justin needs to look into a party bus.
Elena Passarello: Yeah, I think he might be describing. Described? Yeah. And a chauffeur maybe might do a little better than a self-driving car with all the antics that are happening on that epic road trip.
Luke Burbank: Definitely make sure you've got somebody or some other machine driving that thing. What's another dream road trip for one of our listeners?
Elena Passarello: Oh, well, this one is from a familiar sounding name. It's from Tanvi.
Luke Burbank: Tanvi Kumar, outgoing production fellow. We've appreciated so much during her time here.
Elena Passarello: Well, Tanvi's ideal road trip. She might be taking it you know very soon is one with someone I love who doesn't mind taking a bunch of detours to check out random attractions. Bonus points if I get to control the music. And double bonus points if they don't make me drive. Yeah.
Luke Burbank: I feel like people fall into one of two categories, which is the enjoyment of a road trip is not having to be the driver or it's not enjoyable if you can't be the driver. And I am definitely more on the control freak side of things. I did an RV trip with my buddy once from Seattle to Austin. Well, he never touched the steering wheel.
Elena Passarello: Wow!
Luke Burbank: I drove the entire way. And that wasn't the plan going in. It's just and it kept being like, Hey, man, you know, if you want to if you want to hand the keys over, that's fine. I'm like, I'm good. I'll do a couple more hours. I think low key. I was just worried about him being able to operate it.
Elena Passarello: What were David and I road trip from Austin to Oregon? I never touch the steering wheel. I think that's the key to doing that, is to be such a bad driver. Someone would rather drive 2200 miles solo than have you behind the wheel.
Luke Burbank: But you enjoy getting to just be like ride along. I think on Tik Tok they call that passenger princess.
Elena Passarello: Yeah. And also I like to travel with my cats, so there's often like cats to wrangle that's happening.
Luke Burbank: Do you let your cats free range sometime in the car?
Elena Passarello: Yeah. They you know, they all but one of them prefers it. We haven't taken a road trip with them in a long time, but they kind of seem they like to just sit on my lap and, like, curl up in a ball and just wait.
Luke Burbank: That's bubbles, This whole move. I mean, people will email us. I don't know about the legality of this, but Bubbles really likes to just ride along in the car. And she's generally okay. She's generally well-behaved. So that's kind of been our system for now. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Thank you to everyone who wrote in with answers to our question. We got another listener question for next week's show coming up in just a minute. And we're going to get some music from Danielle Ponder. So stick around for all that. I do want to tell you what's coming up on the program next week. We're going to be talking to Ginny Hogan about her path to comedy. It's one of those classic stories. Elena, a data scientist at a mayonnaise company, starts blogging about their online dates and end up having a career in comedy writing. Her latest book is I'm More Dateable Than a Plate of Refried Beans. You know, Dare to Dream is what I would say. Then we're going to hear from Oregon's poet laureate, our friend Anis Mojgani. His poems tend to literally bring me to tears when he's on the show reading them for us. Then we're also going to hear some music from another live wire favorite who actually became a lot of people's favorite during his very impressive run on the TV show America's Got Talent. It's Jimmy Harrod. We'll be hearing from him as well. And as always, we want to get your answers to our listener question. Elena, What are we asking the live Wire fans for next week's show?
Elena Passarello: We want to know, what is your biggest dating Red flag?
Luke Burbank: What's yours?
Elena Passarello: Mine as they cannot be imaginary.
Luke Burbank: Mm hmm. I think that's a fairly low bar.
Elena Passarello: Yeah. Also, they have to like my husband, I guess.
Luke Burbank: And does David have to like them, these are all important questions around red flags? If you've got an answer to that question, go ahead and hit us up on Facebook or Twitter. We are at Live Wire Radio. This is live wire from PRX. Our musical guest this week turned to a career in law after her brother received a 20 year three strikes prison sentence. She served as a public defender in her hometown of Rochester, New York. But this whole time she was still playing music in numerous bands and eventually took a leap of faith to leave the public defender's office and focus on her songwriting. Written and recorded over three years. Her mesmerizing debut album, which is called Some of Us Are Brave, received critical acclaim and has earned her new fans all over the country. This is Danielle Ponder right here on Live Wire. First of all, thank you to both of you for flying all the way out here from Rochester, New York, today to do this. We appreciate it so much.
Danielle Ponder: Thank you so much for having us.
Luke Burbank: What song are we going to hear?
Danielle Ponder: I'm going to do this song called So Long, which is a song I wrote when I went to L.A. and felt like I didn't belong and kind of had imposter syndrome. And like most of my songs, it was what I needed to survive the moment. And I dedicate this to artists and creatives who might feel like it's too late for them. I signed my first record deal at 39. I did my thank you. My first U.S. tour was at 40, and here I am now. So yes,called So Long.
Luke Burbank: This is Danielle Ponder with Avis Reese here on Live Wire.
Danielle Ponder: I feel it when the sun don't shine
Hold my head
And I clear my mind to save me
I'm gonna save me
I won't hide, no
I won't play small
I stay grounded, I can never fall
You won't shake me
You'll never shake me
And I don't care what people say
I'll do it my way
So long
(So long)
All my fears
I'm ready for the day
If I lose some (so long)
Then I've lost them
What more can I say?
I know there's a darker side
The ones that only feed their pride
They're aching
Oh! They'rе aching
I long for a higher plane
Don't forget my mama gavе me my name
You don't make me
Nah, you don't make me
And when I see that rising sun
I know my time has finally come
So long
(So long)
All my fears
I'm ready for the day
If I lose some (so long)
Then I've lost them
What more can I say?
Luke Burbank: That was Danielle Ponder here on Live Wire. Her album, Some of Us Are Brave is available now. That's going to do it for this week's episode of the show. A huge thanks to our guests, Jamie Loftus, Jose Olivarez and Danielle Ponder. Live Wire's brought to you in part by Alaska Airlines.
Elena Passarello: Laura Hadden is our executive producer. Heather de Michele is our executive director and our producer and editor is Melanie Savchenko. Molly Pettit is our technical director and mixer. And our House Sound is by D. Neil Blake. Tre Hester is our assistant editor. Rosa Garcia is our operations associate. Tanvi Kumar is our outgoing production fellow (Yay Tanvi!) and Julienne McCleary is our intern. Our house band is Ethan Fox Tucker, Sam Tucker, Ayal Alves and A. Walker Spring, who also composes our music.
Luke Burbank: Additional funding provided by the Oregon Arts Commission, a state agency funded by the State of Oregon and the National Endowment for the Arts. Live Wire was created by Robin Tenenbaum and Kate Sokoloff. This week we'd like to thank members Mark and Jamie Luce of Mukilteo Washington. For more information about our show or how you can listen to our podcast, head on over to Live Wire Radio dot org. I'm Luke Burbank for Elena Passarello and the whole live wire crew. Thank you for listening and we will see you next week.
PRX.