Episode 595

with Hari Kondabolu, Kristi Coulter, and Quasi

Comedian Hari Kondabolu discusses his new standup special Vacation Baby and how regrettably he blew off congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on her campaign trail; writer Kristi Coulter unpacks her memoir Exit Interview: The Life and Death of My Ambitious Career, which recounts the often soul-crushing work culture of an Amazon executive; and indie rock duo Quasi performs "Queen of Ears" off their new album Breaking the Balls of History. Plus, host Luke Burbank and Elena Passarello share some of the wildest things children have said to our listeners.

Hari Kondabolu

Comedian

Hari Kondabolu is a comedian, writer, and podcaster that The New York Times called “one of the most exciting political comics in stand-up today.” His critically acclaimed Netflix special "Warn Your Relatives" was released in 2018 following two comedy albums, Waiting for 2042 & Mainstream American Comic with legendary indie rock label Kill Rock Stars. Additionally, he has performed on Conan, Jimmy Kimmel Live, The Late Show with David Letterman and among many others. As a podcaster, he co-hosted the popular Politically Reactive with W. Kamau Bell and The Untitled Kondabolu Brothers Podcast with his younger brother Ashok (“Dap” from HBO’s Chillin’ Island and rap group Das Racist.) In 2017, his truTV documentary “The Problem with Apu” was released and created a global conversation about race and representation. He currently co-hosts the Netflix food competition show “Snack vs. Chef” with Megan Stalter and his latest special, "Vacation Baby," is available on YouTube. Website • Instagram • Twitter

Kristi Coulter

Author

Kristi Coulter is an acclaimed memoirist, essayist, and fiction writer. Her 2018 debut memoir, Nothing Good Can Come from This was a finalist for the Washington State Book Award. Her essays and fictions words have also appeared in various places like the The Paris Review, New York Magazine, Elle, Glamour, The Mississippi Review, DAME, The Believer, Alaska Quarterly, Columbia Journal, The Awl, among others. Her latest memoir Exit Interview: The Life and Death of My Ambitious Career. It documents the grueling and oftentimes soul crushing work culture she faced while working as an executive at Amazon. Website • Instagram

Quasi

Band

Portland indie legends Quasi was formed in 1993 by Janet Weiss and Sam Coomes and have spent the last thirty years touring the world and releasing ten albums, including this year's “Breaking the Balls of History.” Concurrently, Janet (who Rolling Stone called "a drum goddess") was a longtime member of Sleater-Kinney, while she also recorded and/or toured with Courtney Barnett and Kurt Vile, Stephen Malkmus and the Jicks, Bright Eyes, the Shins, Elliott Smith, the Go-Betweens, and others. Sam has worked with Elliott Smith, Built to Spill, Jandek, the Go-Betweens, and others, and has toured and recorded as a solo artist. The band was inducted into the Oregon Music Hall of Fame in 2017. Website •Instagram • Twitter

• Full Transcript

  Luke Burbank: Hey there Elena.

  Elena Passarello: Hey there. Luke. How's it going?

  Luke Burbank: It is going well. Although I have some concern this week about our Station Location Identification Examination. So you are very, very smart. And you know a lot of things. In fact, you almost won an episode of Jeopardy once. And you never cease to amaze me at your ability to pick up on these places in America where Live Wire is on the radio. But this one is going to be a stretch. This city's motto claims that it has the finest drinking water in America, the water being supplied by a glacial aquifer 700ft deep below the surface, which is encased in 300ft of solid granite.

  Elena Passarello: Granite. It's got to be somewhere kind of cold, right? Yes.

  Luke Burbank: Cold. Cold where? We're on a lot.

  Elena Passarello: Oh, that's either Wisco or Minnesota.

  Luke Burbank: Okay. Yeah. Door number two. This, by the way, gets you almost no closer to guessing this case. It's in Minnesota. Uh, the place that I'm talking about was named after a local business person. It shares its name, though also with a word that means inlaid decoration of tortoise shell, yellow metal and white metal in cabinet work.

  Elena Passarello: Oh, God. Like, uh uh uh, Formica, Minnesota.

  Luke Burbank: Oh, you're so close. Buhl, Minnesota. Where we're on WIRN as part of Minnesota Public Radio. Shout out to all of our listeners there in Buell with that fine, fine glacial drinking water they're enjoying. All right. Should we get to the show?

  Elena Passarello: Let's do it.

  Luke Burbank: All right. Take it away from it.

  Elena Passarello: This week. Comedian Hari Kondabolu.

  Hari Kondabolu: I am moderately famous in coastal cities whenever NPR is popular, right? Like, yes, I'm like Farmer's market famous, do you know what I mean?

  Elena Passarello: And author Kristi Colter.

  Kristi Coulter: In parts of Amazon, it is truly a well oiled machine now, but the level of chaos, it's not something people understand. It's essentially like smart people in a barn trying to put on a show.

  Elena Passarello: With music from Quasi and our fabulous house band. I'm your announcer, Elena Passarello and now the host of Live Wire, Luke Burbank.

  Luke Burbank: Hey, thank you so much, Elena. Thanks to everyone who is tuning in from all over the country, including Buhl, Minnesota. We have a really, really fun show in store for you this week. Of course, we have asked the Live Wire listeners a question. We ask, what's the craziest thing a kid has ever said to you? And we're going to hear those responses coming up in just a few minutes. First, though, it is time for the best news we heard all week this week. This is our little reminder at the top of the program. There is some good news happening out there in the world. Elena, what is the best news that you heard all week?

  Elena Passarello: Okay. Uh, definitely the cutest news I've heard all week. So apparently on some Netflix television show that has a lot of child characters, one of the children. His signature is that he's always wearing a suit. And there's a young man, a third grader named James Range, who watch that show. I think it's the Fuller House, the full House reboot, Fuller House, and he watched that show. He lives in central Maine, and he was like, okay, I think this is for me. And he asked his mother for a suit for his eighth birthday. Apparently, it's not very easy to get a suit for an eight year old when you live in central Maine. But grandma came through like grandma always does. And then James started wearing his suit to school, and, uh, he said when I looked in the mirror the first time I put the suit on, I knew it looked cool on me. He rolls in to East Central Elementary School and his fancy suit and a couple other third graders take notice, especially his friend Lincoln. Lincoln was like, I'm in. And then Lincoln turned up in an all white suit, a white pair of pants, a white jacket. This is, by the way, a story that's on Maine Public Radio. The photos, if you go to the online option, are spectacular. Um, so Lincoln starts sporting his white suit and James starts sporting his black suit, and they're walking the halls of their elementary school just looking dapper as can be. Flash forward to the end of this last winter term. And James has three suits. He has an array of shirts. Lincoln also is starting to become quite the the clothes horse. And they decide, you know what? We should just start wearing our suits on the same day. Everyone takes notice. The elementary school declares Dapper Wednesdays to be a part of the whole situation. It's so now, every Wednesday at this elementary school. It made all of these kids, mostly boys, but some girls are into it to a mostly third graders. But there are some upperclassmen fifth graders getting involved. They are all sporting whatever fancy clothes they feel like wearing on Wednesdays. And if you don't come in a suit, a lot of the teachers and instructional league professionals have little bow ties that you can put on to strut your stuff on Wednesdays. And the principal, I just think a this is super cute, but B the principal said something about it that really stuck with me. They wanted to celebrate James and Lincoln because they tried to be their authentic selves, and it really made a positive change in their environment. And they want to encourage that in young people that just be who you are and who you want to be, and watch what happens to your community when you express yourself that truthfully, which I think is pretty amazing.

  Luke Burbank: I love that I love the kids in Maine getting dapper. Speaking of student age people, Charlie Jeffers, a little bit older than those folks you were just talking about Elena. He's actually a senior at Redwood High School in Marin County, California, but he is associated with the best news that I heard this week. He has always been a huge fan of Legos, uh, since he was a little kid, he told the local paper. And he realized as he was getting into high school and getting towards his senior year, a lot of his friends who were really into Legos as well. And by the way, I'm carefully not using the term playing with Legos, because if you talk to folks that are deep in the Lego community, we're not playing with Legos.

  Elena Passarello: What are we doing? What's the verb? Uh.

  Luke Burbank: Well, we're we're building.

  Elena Passarello: We're architecting.

  Luke Burbank: That's exactly right. And Charlie noticed that a lot of his friends that were his age were starting to just, like, throw out their Lego sets because they were kind of moving on to other stuff. And he thought, boy, this is all going into a landfill, which is bad. And also Legos are not cheap, and a lot of kids who might want to play with them don't have access to Legos. And so he created this organization called Pass the Bricks, started recruiting his friends and other people to volunteer, and getting all of these old kind of Lego sets from people that were just going to toss them out. Now, one of the things that he realized, though, was that a lot of these sets were missing pieces. I was very much a kid that grew up with a lot of incomplete Lego sets. It'd be like most of the Death Star or whatever I was trying to build, but so they started creating their own Lego sets based on what they had so they would get together like, okay, we have these blocks to make this thing, and they've just given them their own names like Chewbacca's Housewarming Party or Iron Man goes to the car wash. They give it a name, and then they write up, kind of like an instruction manual with photographs of how to make the thing. And they've made like 3000 of these sets, and they've delivered them and mailed them out. To Lake. The Boys and Girls Club of America, which is something I went to when I was a kid. All kinds of other great organizations that help particularly young people. And so this is something that's not only kept stuff out of the landfill, but has now enrich the lives of a lot of people who maybe wouldn't otherwise have access to Legos. So shout out to Charlie and all the folks that are helping get Legos into the hands of people that can use them. That is the best news that I heard this week. You. All right, let's get our first guest on over to the program this week. He's one of our very favorite people who's released a couple of comedy albums. And he's a regular on NPR's wait, wait, Don't Tell Me. He's performed on Jimmy Kimmel Live! And The Late Show with David Letterman, among other places. His latest comedy special, Vacation Baby, is free on YouTube right now. You can go watch it at no charge. And it was named one of the best comedy specials of the year by Paste Magazine. This is Hari Kondabolu, who joined us on stage at Revolution Hall in Portland, Oregon. Welcome back to the show.

  Hari Kondabolu: It's a pleasure to be back.

  Luke Burbank: This latest special of yours is so, so funny. Thank you. I really, really enjoyed it. And it's called vacation, baby. But it's not called pandemic baby. And that is a very intentional decision.

  Hari Kondabolu: Yeah, because the thing is when when people say pandemic baby, my assumption is, oh, the baby was conceived during the pandemic like baby boomers, it's because of the war and that led to the baby. So this the pandemic didn't lead to the baby. Ritz-Carlton led to the baby right. Ritz-Carlton in Honolulu led to the baby boom. And if you're wondering, all bought with Delta miles. Uh, the secret option if you if you have enough with status, baby really have. Delta god status. A baby shows up, right?

  Luke Burbank: Um, I think a lot of people who have been pregnant, uh, who are either here at Revolution Hall or maybe hearing this on the radio will really enjoy this special. If for no other reason than you are very clear eyed about how much you did and did not do in relation to your son being born.

  Hari Kondabolu: Yeah, I put in a short period of work and and then not again, really, until the kid was born. Um, so, you know, I just it's weird because I kept saying, like, we're pregnant, which I think annoyed anyone who's able to have a child is like, really? Really. Um, but I didn't, because it just felt weird to say, like, she's pregnant. Uh, actually, no, that isn't weird. I want I wanted to be a part of it. So we're pregnant. We're in it together.

  Luke Burbank: Mhm. It's incredible, as you point out in the special, that, you know, your relationship with your partner has made it this far, considering you were living in a studio apartment whilst she was pregnant. Did it draw you closer together or did it strained the edges of the relationship?

  Hari Kondabolu: You know, honestly, if if there was the option to like, leave, I think it would have strange that there's something about forced captivity where all you have is this person. You're afraid to leave because the air might kill you. So. Right. You're just in this room and it's not that bad. We had a TV and internet and everything, but like, uh, you know, it brought it also brought us closer, watching, uh, programs that most people weren't watching. We watched all of Homicide Life on the street.

  Luke Burbank: Oh, all right, Andre Brown.

  Hari Kondabolu: And that's everyone's talking about Andre Braugher in terms of Brooklyn Nine-Nine. He's great in that. But if you haven't seen homicide, you don't know how great he is in Brooklyn Nine-Nine.

  Luke Burbank: Thank you. Um, your son had, uh, what the doctors described or someone described as maybe a nightmare at nine hours old.

  Hari Kondabolu: Yeah, yeah, he started, like he was asleep, and then he started screaming hysterically at a no, no, no. First he started twitching. He was twitching, like, uncomfortably in his sleep. And then he started screaming. And I asked what happened. And the the nurse said that it was a nightmare. And it was like nothing's happened yet. Like, this is the easiest part, in fact. Right? Like, unless somebody told him what's coming up like this is this is.

  Luke Burbank: Joy, this four minutes. Oh, guy, this is you know, it's kind of downhill from here, right? You're listening live wire radio from. We are at Revolution Hall here in Portland, Oregon, talking to Hari Kondabolu. His new, uh, special out on YouTube is vacation, baby. We got to take a quick break, but stick around. We will be right back. Welcome back to Live Wire from Pyrex. We're at Revolution Hall here in Portland, Oregon. This week I'm Luke Burbank. That's Elaina Passarelli, and we are with Hari Kondabolu, whose latest comedy special, Vacation Baby, is out on YouTube right now. Um, I noticed when I was scrolling down through the credits of your special that you've you've credited all the great folks that worked on the special, and then there's just sorry, AOC.

  Hari Kondabolu: Yeah.

  Luke Burbank: What happened without giving too much away from the special? Okay. Can you give us a flavor of why it is that you'd have to apologize to Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez in the credits of your special.

  Hari Kondabolu: All right. Okay, here's the thing. So in 2017, I was I was very busy. I was in the middle of of, uh, creating a documentary called The Problem with, uh, with Apu, where I was trying to destroy people's childhoods.

  Luke Burbank: And then that's one interpretation.

  Hari Kondabolu: That's one interpretation of it. I was preparing for my first Netflix special, so I'd been touring really heavily. So I just had a really, like, really busy year. Right. And somewhere in the middle of that year, I get a direct message on, uh, Twitter. Um, it's now called X.

  Luke Burbank: I have never heard someone refer to it as X, and that was the end of the statement. There has to be some clarification.

  Hari Kondabolu: Oh yeah. I mean, it's also a, it's a variable like that literally doesn't have a value. We don't know what it is.

  Luke Burbank: This is definitely the crowd for that joke.

  Hari Kondabolu: You like that. Yeah yeah. Yeah. Like some algebra. I always wondered why I would need math. And it was this show, right?

  Luke Burbank: That's right.

  Hari Kondabolu: I hear that joke. Um, so I get this message, uh, on, uh, direct message. And it was from AOC when she was running for office the first time. And she just basically said how much you like my stand up and how she'd like to collaborate and and all this. And I wrote back, you know, I'm pretty busy right now. Yeah. Um.

  Luke Burbank: Because you're in New Yorker, she's a New Yorker.

  Hari Kondabolu: And at that moment, there was a moment in time brief where I was significantly more famous than she was. Yeah. Now it's significant, but it's still not very much. Right? Because, uh, since that moment, some could argue that I've become slightly less famous. Right. And she is perhaps, uh, you know, the most influential leader of the last decade, if not longer. Right. So, you know, I wasn't thinking that she also represented the neighborhood I grew up in. There's a lot of reasons why I was being a bit of a dirt bag here. You know, I mean, like, because I should have just said, yes, of course. I believe in your values and you represent, you know, a place where I grew up, and this is important, but I'm like, I got a I got to kill a cartoon character right now. I don't have time for this. Right. And so I said, why don't you reach out to me next year? And which is really awful. And so she reaches out to me early 2018 and said, again, you know, I'd love to collaborate with you. I think we can do a lot for the community. And, um, I, I didn't write back and, uh, and then, uh, wow.

  Luke Burbank: You really you really snagged done with the algebra joke and lost them with me leaving AMC hanging.

  Hari Kondabolu: Oh, there is nothing you can do to hurt me more than I've done to myself at this point. Because she wins the primary, which in New York, if you win the primary, you win the election, right? As Democrats. Yeah. So, you know, she wins the thing. And I recognize her name on CNN. Like who is that? And then I, I'm like, oh no, it was the lady isn't it.

  Luke Burbank: Do you think maybe it was a different Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez than the one that had been e-mailing?

  Hari Kondabolu: I mean, to be honest, I didn't really remember her name because I'm full of myself, you know, I'm, as you know, uh, when you get slightly famous, it can go to your head like I'm famous. Basically, in Coastal City. I'm moderately famous in coastal cities or wherever. NPR is popular, right? Like, yes, I'm like farmer's market famous doing me. But but that's enough to get to your head of other people. Are farmer's market famous? And so as soon as I found out she won the same night, like I have no shame, I messaged her immediately. Oh my God, you did it! I knew you'd win.

  Luke Burbank: Did she say get in touch with me next year?

  Hari Kondabolu: No, no, she she went up that she never wrote back. She actually finally wrote back. I posted the video and when the special came out of the full story and everything and people were messaging her and it got it got like written up in the Hill, which is the big magazine for, for, for politicos in DC. And, uh, she wrote back and said, it's perfectly fine. I found it hilarious. And it was. Yeah, it was great. And then, uh, you know, I asked for a position and her.

  Luke Burbank: Yeah.

  Hari Kondabolu: But no, it was, it was, it was kind of. It was it ended really nicely. Uh, even though I still wish we were best friends. Yeah, yeah.

  Luke Burbank: Uh, not all of it, but a lot of the special is about becoming a father and about your son and. The the the photo for the cover of the special is such a great picture. It's you and your son. Yeah. Do you feel like your kid is already cooler than you, than you were or will ever be?

  Hari Kondabolu: I think so. I mean, well, basically, I don't really know lullabies, so I just sing them the songs I listen to in high school. So, like, what he hears for lullabies is like, you know, my name is Jonas or Satan, so. Or the terrible songs I remember, like Closing Time by Sami Zayn, Great Terrible Teenage Dirtbag by Wheatus. Sure, he doesn't know the names of all the songs, but he'll be like, you know, play. I want you to sing. Oh, no, I said too much. Oh no. Oh, losing my religion.

  Luke Burbank: You know you play all right. That might be a little serious.

  Hari Kondabolu: And. And so he like.

  Luke Burbank: That's dad in the corner.

  Elena Passarello: He loves.

  Luke Burbank: That's out spotlight.

  Hari Kondabolu: He requests Depeche Mode a lot. And he requested a song I didn't know, which was very strange. Whoa. Because I put the Spotify on and it's Depeche Mode. And so then he's requesting songs. I don't know, like, I can do enjoy the silence, you know? But like, it's so I don't. So part of me is like, does that mean he's going to be a cool kid who knows all this stuff about music? Or is he going to be the weird kid who listens to his parents music in high school? Like the kid? When I was in high school, there was the kid that listened to, like, The Doors and the ho, and I'm like, what the hell are you listening to? Nobody's listening to this. Know LED Zeppelin, led Zeppelin. See that kid now? Is he the one that's singing Say It Ain't So and requesting. You got any Weezer? I'd like to hear some Weezer at the party. Um, I don't want him to be that kid.

  Luke Burbank: This is Live Wire Radio from PRX. We're talking to Hari Kondabolu. We are here at Revolution Hall in Portland this week. And as we've been talking, hurry. Uh, your latest special, um, talks about parenthood. And one thing that we sort of know about both stand up comedy and being around kids, uh, is that you've got to be thinking on your feet at all times, right? So we asked the audience here at Rev Hall to answer a question for us earlier. We asked, what's the wildest thing a kid has ever said to you? Um, kids have a way of really cutting right to the quick. And, um, we would like to read some of those responses from the audience. The, the, the wildest thing that kid has ever said to them. And then hurry. As both a standup comedian and a parent, we'd be curious if you could say what the proper response to the statement would be.

  Hari Kondabolu: Sure, sure, I'm qualified to do this.

  Luke Burbank: Okay. Yes you are. Yes you are. So Alaina has been gathering up some of those responses. What are you seeing?

  Elena Passarello: Yeah, okay. So hurry. What do you say when your child comes into your room at 4 a.m. and says, I can't sleep, I'm a dolphin. And dolphins only shut off half their brain at a time.

  Hari Kondabolu: Oh. Depends on the age of the child. But my first thought is cough syrup.

  Luke Burbank: I love the idea of you just like dipping a smelt in hot syrup, and then the kid just takes it in flipper style, and then they're out. And I have a feeling cough syrup may be an answer to a lot of these. Yeah. What's the next one?

  Elena Passarello: Okay, what if, uh, now you have to imagine that your mama now. So imagine your kid comes in and says, hey, mama, will you still have boobs after I'm dead?

  Luke Burbank: Does somebody have the kid from The Shining?

  Hari Kondabolu: That's that's a hilarious thing. So this child assumed when I'm gone, those breasts will just shrink back into her body because they no longer have value. That's right. Since I don't need them. Right, right. Yeah. That's how self-involved children are. Everything is for me. Those boobs are for me. Yes. I don't shop at that store anymore. Why is it still there?

  Elena Passarello: Yeah, right. Yes.

  Luke Burbank: Yeah. Um. All right. One more truly wild thing. A kid has said to someone that we can get her his, uh, wisdom on.

  Elena Passarello: Okay, what would you say? Let's say this is your child. Uh, if your child came in and said, uh, why are you in my house? Uh.

  Hari Kondabolu: I mean, there'd be a part of me that would be irrationally furious at the fact that he doesn't pay rent.

  Elena Passarello: Yeah.

  Hari Kondabolu: Hasn't even offered to pay rent. Um, why are you in? My house. It's almost like he's asking, why are any of us here? Mhm. Uh, and I would say to him, son, would you like to watch some Peppa Pig. And that that question will go away very quickly.

  Elena Passarello: Drink this cough syrup and put on a little.

  Luke Burbank: Side of cough syrup.

  Hari Kondabolu: Peppa pig is the TV version of cough syrup.

  Luke Burbank: Sage advice from one Hari Kondabolu everyone.

  Unidentified: Thanks for coming on, Live Wire.

  Luke Burbank: That was Hari Kondabolu right here on Live Wire. Make sure you check out his latest special, "Vacation Baby." It is so funny and it is so free on YouTube. Go check it out right now. This is live wire, of course. We always like to ask our listeners a question each week. This week we asked, what is the wildest thing a kid has ever said to you? They really are truth tellers. Test kids. Uh, Elena has been collecting up the responses. What are you seeing?

  Elena Passarello: I just want to make a proposal that we just extend this show for an extra 30 minutes or so, so I can read all of these because they are all amazing.

  Luke Burbank: Okay. I'm, uh. I'll second that emotion.

  Elena Passarello: Excellent. So Sarah says: I asked my daughter if she wanted to go to the park yesterday, and she said, no thanks. I'm an indoor cat.

  Luke Burbank: Well, good for knowing yourself. Knowing your truth.

  Elena Passarello: Good job.

  Luke Burbank: That would not have flown when I was a kid. I grew up in the era where it was at about 8 a.m. and particularly in the summertime, you were forcibly ejected from the home and pretty much barred from coming back until the sun was starting to go down.

  Elena Passarello: Yes, you were a like an orphan until it was dinnertime and you came back grubby and gross.

  Luke Burbank: I would have definitely tried to claim indoor cat privileges if we had that sort of terminology back in the 70s and 80s. All right. Uh. What else?

  Elena Passarello: Here's what from Mike. Mike says: I asked my nephew what his wrestling name would be, and he replied, rhombus Hahahahahahahaha solid name.

  Luke Burbank: Like, can you imagine trying to get somebody or something that was a rhombus into, like, the proper hold? Like that'd be one of the most challenging things to wrestle against.

  Elena Passarello: Also, a signature move named after rhombus would be very cool.

  Luke Burbank: Yes, like they had the figure for leg lock when I was a kid growing up watching the WWF.

  Elena Passarello: That actually probably is a rhombus.

  Luke Burbank: All right. Something else, uh, that a kid said that stunned one of our listeners.

  Elena Passarello: This is another nephew, one from Sal. Sal says: my nephew told me I smelled like hot dog water, unprovoked.

  Hari Kondabolu: Whoa.

  Luke Burbank: Uh, I think everyone who is an adult has a memory of some time. A kid said something to them about, like, why does your breath smell like that?

  Elena Passarello: 40% of these are just kids insulting adults, and I have I'm here for them because these are some real sick burns. Like this one from Lydia. Lydia says: I had some old clothes from when I was little, so I asked my neighbor's kid if she wanted to look through them and see if there was anything she wanted, and she looked at me straight up and said, no thanks, I don't like what you wear. Hahahahahahaha! I now think about this constantly.

  Luke Burbank: Meanwhile, this kid was dressed head to toe in Paw Patrol. So I mean honestly, don't get cocky. Well, thanks to everybody who sent in a response to our listener question. We've got another one for next week's show coming up in just a few. In the meantime, let's welcome our next guest over. She left her cozy but admittedly dull job in Michigan for a promising new position at a scrappy little company in Seattle that got its start selling books. It was Bertha's Bookshop in Fremont. Uh jk. Uh, it was Amazon. It's the place that we're talking about. Pretty soon she found the challenge and excitement that she had been craving. But she also found seven day workweeks, widespread burnout, and a culture that she says was driven largely by fear. 12 years later, she moved on from Amazon and wrote a book about it. It's titled Exit Interview The Life and Death of My Ambitious Career. Slate calls it enlightening and wincing. Lee funny. This is Kristi Colter, who talked to us on stage at Town Hall in Seattle, Washington. Take a listen. Hi there. Welcome to the show, Christy.

  Kristi Coulter: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

  Luke Burbank: This book is so well written. And we were. Elena and I were talking about it a while ago, saying we were shocked at how riveted we were by the machinations of, like, corporate America. Yes. Right. Like, it's totally riveting, even though a lot of it's just about like, emails going around and meetings. And are we going to be able to, you know, get an ROI on this or get this to you by Colby?

  Kristi Coulter: Are we going to get headcount right? Are we going to lose headcount?

  Luke Burbank: I'm curious, though, to start sort of back in 2006, you're in Michigan. Like, what is your life looking like then? And what were you looking for?

  Kristi Coulter: Yeah. So my life was it was pretty sweet in retrospect. I was living in Ann Arbor, Michigan, where I'd gone to grad school. Okay. There's so many Ann Arbor sites in in Seattle. And I was working at the All Music Guide, which was like a really kind of fun and cool and cozy place to work. And I had absolutely tapped out on how far I could get. And I was bored, and I, I one day was driving home and it was the first snow. And this Josh Ritter song came on the radio about like when the snow is gone and it melts. And I started to sob because I had just had one winter too many. I had to pull over and I was like, I've got to get out of here. And that and the job together. I think like six weeks later I had a job at Amazon. Like it happened really fast for me.

  Luke Burbank: Could you actually read, uh, a little bit from the book? Uh, this is from, I guess you sort of would call it chapter two. You've titled The.

  Kristi Coulter: Pole. Oh, yes.

  Luke Burbank: And can you kind of explain what this I think this kind of sets up, or at least it foreshadows what Amazon's going to be like for you.

  Kristi Coulter: Yeah. This is uh, it's the job description only you'll see that I have taken considerable liberties. Um, I interviewed over a thousand people at Amazon during my 12 years there. So I saw a lot of job descriptions, the good and the bad. So I'll read this. The poor title. Senior manager. Books and Media merchandizing location Seattle, Washington Date Posted January 6th, 2006. Do you want to change the world? Are you passionate about helping customers shop online? Do you have the stamina of a jacked up mountain goat? And and boundaries. Fairly described as porous, Amazon.com is seeking a North American leader for its books and media merchandizing teams. In this role, you will own the merchandizing, editorial, and email content for five Amazon storefronts, leading multiple editorial teams in a 20 473 65 demand generation process. You will drive relentless, and we seriously do mean relentless improvement in merchandizing content on Amazon and directly impact free cash flow. You will also build new internal content management tools with band aids and Scotch tape by working closely with understaffed technical leaders in a highly matrix environment that is one in which you have almost no real authority or leverage. Amazon's culture is exciting, fast paced and dynamic, like highly dynamic. If you end up having this job, no worries, it will be unrecognizable in six months anyway. We offer competitive pay and a benefits package that does not. The worst employee amenities include a desk and laptop, plus the option to request sandpaper for your desk. You'll see and a coat hook from facilities. Please allow ten days for delivery job requirements five plus years experience leaving content or editorial team's track record of delivering large, cross-functional, complex customer facing products under circumstances verging on psychotic. Intense fear. Failure. Ability to be dropped into any situation with a blowgun. Turning it and Excel 97. Figure things out fast, thick hide pelt also highly desired. Superior physical stamina. Stay at home spouse. Acute imposter syndrome. EEOC statement Amazon.com technically counts as an equal opportunity employer. Yeah.

  Luke Burbank: That's Christy Colter reading from exit interview.

  Unidentified: Here on Livewire on.

  Luke Burbank: One of the things that really jumped out at me reading this book, which is sort of alluded to, there is just how close the wheels are to coming off all the time with this company that is like the most successful company, maybe in the history of the world. How has it been so successful when it feels on the inside like it's all about to fall apart?

  Kristi Coulter: Yeah, there aren't a wheels. I mean, I think that in parts of Amazon it is truly a well oiled machine now. But the level of chaos is it's not something people understand. It's essentially like smart people in a barn trying to put on a show.

  Luke Burbank: Oh. Live wire? Yeah, exactly.

  Kristi Coulter: Like nobody knows what's going on. Everyone's just kind of, like, on half information and panic and goodwill. So I don't know. I don't know how it works out as well as it does generally.

  Luke Burbank: But the other thing that you write about is this kind of pervasive culture of like fear and, and this almost by design sense that nobody's doing their job well enough. Yes. Is that sort of built into the company?

  Kristi Coulter: I think at this point it is. I don't know that they were like, let's scare everyone. That'll be how we build our company. But there's so much fear. And they hire these people who have been high achievers all their life and then make it impossible to be a high achiever. So you're just constantly like, but that's how I get satisfaction and validation. Next time I'll get a thanks or something. So everyone's terrified and the kind of people they hire are the kind of people, when terrified, we just double down and do more.

  Luke Burbank: Hmm. Um, Amazon was when you were there, and it remains, I believe, a very male dominated company and culture. Um, but you write in the book that you didn't personally experience harassment that felt like it was gendered because everyone feels terrible about themselves, essentially.

  Elena Passarello: Yes.

  Kristi Coulter: I mean, I know from from friends that you've been VP at Amazon that harassment does happen. I mean, it happens everywhere, but like the Silicon Valley stereotype of parties with models hired to attend like hot tub orgies, that is not Amazon like. Amazon is so austere and everybody's so scared that, like, I think they're mostly too scared and panicked to even think about, like harassing another human being, just trying to just, like, survive, which is nice. Um, it's it's I mean, in some ways it's a very like like it's like a friendly military in some ways. You know, just like, okay, our meeting, our meeting agenda today is and you do it. And then everyone runs to the next meeting. And, you know, there's not a lot, lot of time for like. It took me years to even have a work crush. It's just sad, you know, you you need to have one. And it took me like, nine years to get one. Yeah.

  Luke Burbank: There's also you. Right. This real, um, kind of ethos of like thriftiness and austerity within the company. And of course, famously, it's like, you know, they had doors as their desks back and, you know, the garage or whatever, but like to the time when you were there, this was still very much part of the culture.

  Kristi Coulter: Yeah. And actually someone in the the leadership principles, frugality that we it's like Amazon wants to spend things on money, on things customers care about. But um, someone at Amazon came up with a Wikipedia page called Through Pity, like a portmanteau of frugality and stupidity. And, I mean, people would just add these just insane things. Like, I had a laptop that took six minutes to boot up and like every time, and then it would shut itself down and they wouldn't replace it because I had six months left on my life cycle. And, I mean, I was just like. And one time I had to, I had to pick up a new monitor and carry it back six blocks through downtown Seattle, like I'm walking through dumps associated with this huge thing. Like I can't see where I'm going. And it was just like dumb things like that.

  Luke Burbank: Uh, this is Live Wire coming to you from, uh. I would. I mean, as the crow flies, what, 800ft from the Amazon World headquarters here in Seattle, Washington.

  Kristi Coulter: They're everywhere.

  Luke Burbank: We're talking. That's where we're talking to Kristi Colter. Her book is Exit Interview The Life and Death of My Ambitious Career. Did you at some point, because, you know, you had studied writing, you were a writer? Had did you at some point in the midst of this, think, okay, this is a book? And did you start like taking notes?

  Kristi Coulter: It took me a long time. I had written my first book. My first book was about to come out and it hit me, you know, when you're inside Amazon, you don't necessarily think it's interesting to the outside world. Um, and then I was like I said to my agent, well, I don't know, I had this idea and I'm just not sure. And she was like, please write that book. And I it still took me like six months to be like, is anyone going to care about, you know, inside Amazon and inside an office? But at that point I was like, well, I probably should leave. Like, I felt very weird about knowing I was writing the book and being there, and I didn't want to take a lot of documents out with me and stuff because I wanted to write the book just for my memories, so that it's more like it's less legally dicey that way. It was pure memoir, you know? So I left pretty soon after that because I just thought, this is classier to just go, yeah.

  Luke Burbank: But yeah, but you had written, um, you had written a previous book. I think the title was Nothing Good Can Come From This. And it was about your journey getting sober. Right. And I've heard that you saying that the book about getting sober was easier to write than the book about Amazon.com.

  Kristi Coulter: So much easier. So much easier. Why? Um, I so this book took me four years to write, and the first, like year and a half, I was I had Amazon's voice in my head all the time. So every time I sat down to write, it was like, this book is stupid. You're not a very good writer. No one's going to want this. You could be doing better. And it took me a while to read.

  Luke Burbank: You don't deserve a new laptop.

  Kristi Coulter: You don't deserve a new laptop. You know, you should be working at a desk that snags your clothes. Um, and I was like, oh. And then I thought it was a trauma memoir, which it is kind of. Yeah. And and I worked on that for like a year. And I was like, well, this is not any fun. And I finally when I realized it was sort of a coming of age story, even though it starts when I'm 36. Um, I was it could be argued I was not a grown up. Then I that's when it snapped into place and I was like, this is fun now. And I'm a bit of a my own heroine, you know, it's a story of self rescue. But yeah, I am so happy I never have to write this book again. It's fun to read, but it was like it was hard to write.

  Luke Burbank: Uh, there's a very telling part, uh, towards the end of the book, when you finally decide you're going to leave and you actually have composed this, uh, very lengthy kind of exit email through the system, the internet, for when you leave Amazon because no one is going to meet with you face to face after 12 years there.

  Kristi Coulter: Yeah.

  Luke Burbank: And basically you sort of pour your heart out and send all this constructive feedback, and then you hit submit and it's just like, you get the.

  Kristi Coulter: Wheel, I get the wheel. The little, the little, um, hourglass. Yeah, yeah. I was in the 98th percentile for tenure at Amazon by the time I left. Wow. Um, so I've been there longer than 98% of everyone worldwide and one of relatively few women at my level. And no one offered me an in-person exit interview. They just gave me this form. So I filled out the form diligently, and then it hung and was never submitted. So I, you know, I was.

  Luke Burbank: I have to note, of course, the irony that's been noted many times, which is that this book is, in fact for sale on Amazon.

  Kristi Coulter: Yes, and I'm very grateful.

  Luke Burbank: Honestly, did you actually wonder if they if and legally and like morally. Well I don't think morals. Yeah huge role in what they do. No I mean could they have not sold your book which is basically kind of pointing out a lot of the shortcomings of their corporate culture.

  Kristi Coulter: They could have made that choice. And of course, if there's something to worry about, like, I will find it and worry about us. I was worried about that, and my agent was like, it would be the best thing that ever happened to you for publicity, actually. Um, but, you know, I have heard from a shocking number of people, um, a lot of, like, VP's and higher ups I worked with who are like, I can't say this publicly, but the book is perfect. Thank you. Um, tons of women saying I felt like you were writing my story. What's really surprised me is I guess I had this idea that the men were just flouncing around, you know, being like, hey, I rule, I rule Amazon. The men are not okay either. I'm hearing from so many men who are like, except for the gender stuff, you're telling my story. Wow.

  Luke Burbank: I guess the lesson for all of the managers out there is definitely grant an exit interview to your employees, or they will write a book about you.

  Elena Passarello: Especially if they have an MFA.

  Luke Burbank: That's right.

  Kristi Coulter: Right? Right, right.

  Luke Burbank: Krisiti Coulter, the book is Exit Interview: The Life and Death of my Ambitious Career. Thank you.

  Unidentified: So thank you.

  Luke Burbank: That was Kristi Coulter right here on Live Wire. Her memoir, Exit Interview The Life and Death of my ambitious career is out right now. I'm Luke Burbank. That's Elena Passarello right over there. We've got to take a quick break, but don't go anywhere. When we come back, we're going to hear some music from the indie rock band sensation quasi. Stay with us. Welcome back to Live Wire from. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elaina Passarelli. Oh, okay. Before we get to our musical guests this week, a preview of next week's show, we are going to be talking to the comedian and podcaster who can now add author to her resume, Jenny Loftus. Her first book is called Raw Dog The Naked Truth About Hot Dogs. It's part travelog, part culinary history. Uh, we are going to find out what it was like for her being contractually obligated to eat 200 hot dogs, a dream for many people. Then, speaking of haute cuisine, we're going to hear from renowned chef and author Kenji Lopez Alt about his cooking journey, which actually started at one of those Mongolian grill restaurants where you, like, fill up your bowl with all this meat and vegetable, and then they cook it for you. And Kenji has really, really come a long way in his career. Uh, so we're going to talk to him about his latest book. Then we're going to round out the program with some music from lawyer turned musician Danielle Ponder. Sorry, legal system. You lost one. But that's our gain as music fans. And as always, we're going to be looking to get your answer to our listener question. Elena, what are we asking the Live Wire listeners for next week's program?

  Elena Passarello: Ooh, we want to know what is your ideal road trip?

  Luke Burbank: All right. If you have thoughts on what makes the ideal road trip and this is something people do have opinions on, go ahead and let us know via Twitter or Facebook. I know they're not calling it Twitter, but whatever. We're at live wire radio pretty much everywhere. This is live Wire from our musical guest this week are pretty much legendary. They were formed in 1993 by Janet Weiss and Sam Coomes. They've spent the last 30 years touring the world and releasing ten albums, including their latest one. It's called Breaking the Balls of History. Is this the first time that sentence has been set on public radio? Probably. Uh. They were inducted into the Oregon Music Hall of Fame back in 2017, and now they are here on Live Wire. Take a listen to quasi recorded at Revolution Hall in Portland. Hello.

  Elena Passarello: Hello.

  Luke Burbank: Thank you for being here. I've been such a fan of your band for a long time, and a lot of the other projects that you've both done, um, so I'm really stoked to have you here. Sam, I read somewhere that you called this latest album An Act of Hope. What did you mean by that? Um. Well, I mean, I think anytime you get up in the morning and you go to work, that's an act of home, basically. Sure.

  Quasi: Especially our work, because most of our.

  Quasi: Work, nobody ever sees it.

  Quasi: We work, we work, we work.

  Quasi: And then we put this thing out. So it's all future oriented.

  Luke Burbank: Janet, uh, it's so nice to see you here. And and this album is really is so great. But also, it sounds like it was something that could have very well not been able to come together because of this car accident that you were in. And like, a really serious car with a lot of broken bones. Was there a period in your recovery where it seemed like actually being able to play again was was maybe not possible?

  Quasi: Definitely the first. Four months. Wow. Wow. Yeah. I had to be in a bed for three months. I couldn't walk, I couldn't put weight on my arm. It was definitely too long a period to be thinking every day like, oh, I hope I can play the drums. And I would tell my surgeons like, don't mess it up. I was like, no, you don't understand. I have to play the drums. I can't just be like walking around. That's not good enough.

  Luke Burbank: Did you have a physical therapy thing you did? Or like, how did you sort of begin to re integrate with drum?

  Quasi: Um, well, my partner's a coach and I'm going to say that he's a gymnastics coach. And so that was actually very, very, very helpful. Wow. And when they would give me like this is what you should do, I would do that and then I would do more. Like I would always take it really seriously, the assignment. And you know, I just wanted to get better.

  Luke Burbank: How do you feel now when you're playing?

  Quasi: I feel great. Yay!

  Luke Burbank: Awesome. Thank you. On that note, maybe we should hear some music. What? What song are we going to hear? Uh, it's a song called Queen of ears. Okay. Basically a takeoff on Duke of Earl. All right, this is quasi on live wire.

  Speaker 5: The fever. Conspire to bring you here. This country of such flocks and.

  Unidentified: But. A headache so small.

  Speaker 5: Containing all that it confirms. You've been barking up the. No wrong tree. I said it. This time they go from the gods. Your mind. I should.

  Unidentified: Buy some. For. There are. And casualties are.

  Speaker 5: Recall to your. A conference.

  Unidentified: Where's he? I.

  Speaker 5: Mistress of. Meanwhile, you discover your legs betray your heart. And lead you to the desert of reason. Cowboys and vampires of every stripe converge on him in a small yard. This was the first thing done. My. Less stress on.

  Quasi: The important.

  Unidentified: Queen of. Woo!

  Luke Burbank: That was quasi right here on Live Wire, recorded at Rev Hall in Portland. Their latest album, Breaking the Balls of History, is out now. All right. That's going to do it for this week's episode of Live Wire. A big thanks to our guests Hari Kondabolu, Christie Colter, and Quasi.

  Quasi: Laura Hatten as our executive producer. Heather De Michele is our executive director. And our producer and editor is Melanie Savchenko. Evan Hopper and Molly Pettit are our technical directors, and our house sound is by Neil Blake. Tre Hester is our assistant editor. Our marketing production manager is Karen Pan. Rosa Garcia is our operations associate, and Jackie Ibarra is our production fellow. Our house band is Ethan Fox Tucker, Sam Tucker, Ayal Alves, and A Walker Spring who also composes our music. This episode was mixed by Molly Pettit and Tre Hester.

  Luke Burbank: Additional funding provided by the Regional Arts and Culture Council and the James F and Marion L Miller Foundation. Live wire was created by Robyn Tenenbaum and Kate Sokoloff. This week, we'd like to thank members Mark Kendall of Salem, Oregon, and Robert Cuppage of Vancouver, Washington. For more information about our show or how you can listen to our podcast, head on over the Live Wire radio.org. I'm Luke Burbank. For Alaina Passaro and the whole live wire team. Thank you for listening and we'll see you next week.

  Quasi: P r x.