Episode 608

with Gary Gulman, Anis Mojgani, and Olive Klug

Comedian Gary Gulman (The Great Depresh) discusses his memoir Misfit: Growing Up Awkward in the '80s, his struggles with mental health, and the awkwardness of being recognized in the psyche ward; Oregon Poet Laureate Anis Mojgani reads from his newest collection The Tigers, They Let Me and makes the case for why poetry exists all around us; singer-songwriter Olive Klug touches on the TikTok generation of songwriting, before performing their song "Raining in June." Plus, host Luke Burbank and announcer Elena Passarello share the ways in which our listeners have been unexpectedly cheered up by others.

Gary Gulman

Comedian and author

Gary Gulman is one of the most popular touring comics, selling out theaters nationwide including Carnegie Hall. He has been a guest on every major late-night comedy program. Gulman’s four comedy specials include HBO's The Great Depresh, a highly acclaimed look at mental illness. In 2019 he appeared in the international blockbuster Joker. He has a recurring role on the Hulu comedy series Life & Beth. A product of Boston, Gulman was previously a scholarship college football player, an accountant, and a high-school teacher. Misfit: Growing Up Awkward in the '80s is his first book. Website • Instagram • Twitter

Anis Mojgani

Poet Laureate

Anis Mojgani is the 10th Poet Laureate of Oregon. A two-time individual champion of the National Poetry Slam and winner of the international World Cup Poetry Slam, his work has appeared on HBO, NPR, and in the pages of the NY Times. The author of six books of poetry, an opera libretto, and a forthcoming children’s picture book, his latest is titled The Tigers, They Let Me. Originally from New Orleans, Anis lives in Portland Oregon where he serves on the board of the organization, Literary Arts, and can be found making art in his studio and occasionally reading poems from out its window at sunset to others. Website • Instagram • Twitter

Olive Klug

Singer-songwriter

A key player in the new wave of contemporary folk singers, Olive Klug makes earnest, queer acoustic folk music with the central goal of allowing listeners to tap into their feelings. Self-styled after genre icons like Joni Mitchell and Brandi Carlile, Olive is known for their beautiful tone and vividly honest storytelling. Their sound is reminiscent of the Golden Age of American Folk Music, but with a uniquely modern lyrical sensibility. Website • Instagram • Twitter

• Full Transcript

  Luke: Hey, Elena.

  Elena: Hey, Luke. How's it going?

  Luke: It is going absolutely splendid this week because it is once again time for station location identification examination. Are you ready?

  Elena: Yeah, I am ready.

  Luke: This is where I quiz a very confident Elena Passarello about a place in the country where Live Wire is on the radio. She's got to guess where I am talking about. Okay. This is actually the first American settlement west of the Rocky Mountains.

  Elena: Hmm....I have an idea, but I'd like a confirming clue, please.

  Luke: If I give you the second clue, it's going to be a slam dunk.

  Elena: Okay. It's Astoria, Oregon.

  Luke: You always come in so hesitant and then you just absolutely 360 slam dunk it. That's right. It's the location of many a film, including Free Willy. Free Willy 2. (Yeah.) Kindergarten Cop, Into the Wild. And of course, famously The Goonies. Right. Astoria, Oregon, where we're on KOAC radio in Astoria. So shout out to everybody out there in Astoria. You ready to get to the show?

  Elena: Yeah. Let's do it.

  Luke: All right. Take it away.

  Elena: From PRX it's LIVE WIRE! This week, comedian Gary Gulman.

  Gary Gulman: Yeah, I grew up without a father, but I got to I got to watch Taxi.

  Elena: And poet Anis Mojgani.

  Anis Mojgani: The poem exists whether it has language or not delivered to it. You know, the trees exist, whether we climb them, the trees exist, whether we follow them, whether we dismiss them.

  Elena: With music from Olive Klug and our fabulous house band. I'm your announcer, Elena Passarello, and now the host of Live Wire, Luke Burbank.

  Luke: Hey, thank you so much, Elena Passarello, and thanks to everyone for tuning in from all over the country, including Astoria, Oregon. We have a great show in store for you this week, of course. We have a question we've asked the live wire audience this week, as we often do. We asked, Tell us about a meaningful thing someone did to cheer you up when you were having a hard time talking to Gary Gulman about his book and also his battle with depression. So this is relevant to that. We're going to hear those responses coming up in a minute. First, though, it's time, of course, for the best news we heard all week. This is our little reminder right here at the top of the program that there is good news happening out there in the world. Elena, what is the best news you've heard all week?

  Elena: Well, talking about somebody doing something that makes me feel good. This totally makes me feel good and hopeful about the future. It involves some high schoolers in South Baltimore, which is a part of town on the Curtis Bay. It's a peninsula that has a lot of industrial activity as well as a few working class residential neighborhoods and schools. There's a junkyard there. There's an old landfill. There's a bunch of chemical plants. And there's this kind of railroad like, I guess, inlet to the port where CSX has often train car after train car after train car of uncovered coal. So right by the high school, there's just like mountains of coal there all the time. And of course, that leads to some issues with pollutants. Yeah. Luckily, there is a club that exists and it has existed for over a decade to protect the South Baltimore community. It's called Free Your Voice. They started in 2011 when a bunch of high schoolers successfully shut down a plan to build an incinerator really close to the high school. They gave this really impassioned speech at a school board meeting with music and argument and poetry. The school board gave them a standing ovation, and after a couple of years, that plan bit the dust. Speaking of dust, the thing that they're doing now is to try to prove that there is coal dust affecting the communities. Coal dust, of course, is like a pollutant that causes a lot of respiratory issues. So these high schoolers, which include Taysia Thompson, who is the little sis of somebody from the first generation, the incinerator bunch of the Free Your Voice posse, they are going door to door. They are making detection devices out of sticky paper.

  Luke: I didn't know you could do that.

  Elena: They did. I mean, I think they devised this by themselves. They're hanging banners over highways. They're bringing bags of coal to and leaving them at the houses of Baltimore City Council members. They're working with scientists at Towson University, at Johns Hopkins, and with a particular scientist in California. In order to get all the hard data and all the social information they need to prove to the state, federal and local governments that this has to change. They either need to keep the coal wet or they need to cover it. There are some options that are in place, and of course there's a ton of red tape and proliferism when you're dealing with different kinds of government agencies. But they are making a difference, and it just makes me feel so good.

  Luke: All of those kids should graduate with straight A's. I don't even care what their actual grades are. That is such an amazing life lesson and such a way to integrate learning about the world with advocating for yourself. That's an incredible story.

  Elena: And how to be a part of a community in every way, shape and form. It's just so impressive.

  Luke: Good for them. Speaking of high schoolers doing something very cool, do you know the sort of new trend with a number of high school bands is to actually convert them to mariachi? And it's really popular, particularly in California. There's a school called KIPP Soul Academy in Los Angeles, and the band director, Arlette Morales, was looking around one day a few years ago and she was like, there's a lot of like mariachi involving adults, but there's not much mariachi for kids. Why don't I actually start mariachi at this school? And she only got like a few students to show up. Uh huh. But those few students had so much fun and they told their friends and they told their friends. And now there is a hundred person waiting list to get into mariachi at KIPP Soul Academy. It's also like causing a lot of these students to make more connections with their families. The singer, the seventh grader, Genesis Trinidad, is the singer for this year's mariachi at KIPP Soul Academy. She said that she doesn't actually speak Spanish, but her grandfather plays Norteno, which is a genre of Mexican music. And she and her granddad have been bonding over mariachi because this is now this kind of thing that they can share. Genesis also says that when she got into Mariachi, her love for music expanded. She says, like ten times more. There's a number of schools around the country that are offering mariachi, and it's just like hugely fun and popular. I'm looking all these photos of the kids all decked out with their instruments.

  Elena: Do they march like? Do they make shapes and things?

  Luke: They don't take the marching band aspect that far. I think it's just a way of expressing themselves musically. But I'm reminded of when I lived in Los Angeles and I lived in a neighborhood where a lot of people would have quinceaneras and other get togethers and they would hire mariachi bands, and I would just like stand next to my fence and listen to, like free mariachi music. Just like I would see a bouncy house going up in my neighborhood and I'd be like, It's going. To be a good Saturday. (It's on!) I'm gonna get some sweet, free mariachi music. So the kids getting into mariachi. That's the best news that I heard this week. All right. Let's invite our first guest on over to the program this week. He is absolutely one of my favorite comics working today. He's been on all of the late night shows many times. He's also has this HBO special called "the Great Depresh," which really, to me was kind of a revelation in terms of melding humor with the really kind of serious and impactful discussion about mental health. He's got a book out now. It's called "Misfit: Growing Up Awkward in the Eighties". Now, in his career, Elena, he has sold out Carnegie Hall, but for some reason he also agreed to be on Live Wire. This is Gary Gulman live from the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon.

  Gary Gulman: Thank you.

  Luke: Gary. Thank you so much.

  Gary Gulman: Oh, it's my pleasure. It's an honor. It's an honor. It's a great show.

  Luke: I've followed your career really closely. I've been a fan of yours for a long, long time.

  Gary Gulman: I wish I knew

  Luke: And I still found out so much more about you in this book that I didn't know, including the fact that your parents were divorced. But your mom was still your dad's best friend. (Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.) And you were kind of good with them being divorced.

  Gary Gulman: Yeah, because my my father, if I say to my fathers, I would have to go to bed at 8 p.m.. And my mom, the bedtime was 930, which allowed me to watch the year three companies, your Laverne and Shirley and things like that. So it was. It was, yeah, I grew up without a father, but I got to. I got to watch Taxi.

  Luke: The other thing about this book that struck me was the structure of it, because it's about your childhood. You kind of go grade by grade, but then you also every other chapter is about a time in your life in 2017 where you went through a depressive episode that was incredibly debilitating. Oh, yeah. To the point that you moved home to live with your mother in Peabody, Massachusetts. Yes. Why in that year did that seem to you like the only thing to do?

  Gary Gulman: Oh, this is interesting. And I'm so glad you read the book. A lot of people I do interviews and they clearly didn't read the book. They would say something like, No, you used chapters. That was what What made you use that as a device to. Yeah. So I had been in the hospital in the psych ward at Cornell Weill and I did not feel that I could go back to doing my comedy. I wasn't ready to work because I had had electroconvulsive therapy. And then it takes some time to recover from that. And also.

  Luke: And this was for anxiety and depression.

  Gary Gulman: Yes. Very severe to the point where I was catatonic for a first. I mean, basically two and a half years I spent on the couch, I was able to to pull myself together some days for an hour, stand up to pay rent and things like that. But then I realized I, I don't think I'm going to be able to make rent. And I, I, my lease was up. I said, I'm going to go home to my mom. And most people would say that their low point was was receiving electroconvulsive therapy in the in the hospital. For me much further down is is moving back into the twin bed you grow up in and at 46 years old and and also there was this thing where a lot of people that I grew up with still lived in the in the neighborhood. And I would see them and they'd ask me what I've been up to. And it's like, well, I can I can use laces again. So that's, that's very helpful. And my you'll notice my, my socks don't have any treads on the bottom. So things are and I'm, and I'm living with my mom. It was just it was it was very humbling, which is a good thing in some cases. But I had plenty of humility going in. And it just it was really it was really hard. But it alleviated this great stress, which was making rent and and trying to earn money out there. And I really thought I may not be able to do standup again. So I wanted to I wanted to go back to school, to study, to be a teacher, but I definitely needed to convalesce. And in about three or four months in, I found myself being drawn to going up to the comedy clubs just to hang out with people. And then the man was very generous. He put me on at the end of the show and I had to address why I looked so frail and was shaking and and hadn't hadn't shaved. And so I started talking about the first joke I did. I said, Ever get recognized in the psych ward? And that that really happened. Somebody knew me from TV and said, Am I crazy? Are you Gary Gulman? And and I said, Oh, yeah, we're crazy. But this is one of those two things. I'm just yeah, I'm just getting that from context, wearing pajamas and it's 6:30 p.m.. So yeah, but I am Gary Gulman.

  Luke: All right, we're going to take a quick break and get it together and then we're to come back. We're going to talk to Gary Gulman more. His new book is "Misfit: Growing Up Awkward in the 1980s." This is Live Wire. Stay with us. Welcome back to live wire from PRX. We're at the Alberta Rose Theater here in Portland, Oregon. I'm Luke Burbank, here with Elena Passarello. We are so excited to have Gary Gulman here. His book is "Misfit: Growing Up Awkward in the Eighties". Now, when I read the title of the book, I had a hard time squaring it with sort of the way I think about you, because you're a very athletic person. Sure. You're a tall guy. It didn't seem like you would have been a misfit, except then I thought. He's a comedian, right? Something must have happened.

  Gary Gulman: Yeah, comedians generally don't fit in. And then we find this group of people who who get us who watched SCTV and Chris Elliott's get a Life and and and..right?

  Luke: Handsome role modeling.

  Gary Gulman: I'm on. I was a 1993 graduate of Handsome Boy modeling school. Yes.

  Luke: I can tell.

  Gary Gulman: And so we find these people and we're like, where were they? And theater kids get it in in high school. And and kids who are into fixing cars get it in ninth grade when they go to the vocational school. But but people who didn't fit in and sat in the back of the class or even I noticed I was always drawn to the football kids who would crack wise and be pushed around by the within every group. There's always somebody pushing you around. They know they need to practice their bullying, so there are younger kids or smaller kids in the football team and we would make fun of them. And it just it was it was a very healthy outlet for our for our creativity and our resentment. And it was also self-medicating in that I found the dopamine or serotonin associated with laughing or getting a laugh. Was it was it was it was a life saver.

  Luke: I felt a little let down when I read about your initial Robin Leach impression that you would do because you mentioned it's the easiest impression. I was very proud of my Robin Leach impression. At about the same time, aspiring funny kids all over America were making parodies of lifestyles, thinking we were reinventing.

  Gary Gulman: Yeah, I made this audio tape and it was I think it was the lifestyles of the the broke.

  Luke: And hopeless.

  Gary Gulman: And hopeless. And I was just pointing out all these things, how we had this bar of soap that was like six slivers melded together and. But even to this day, I can afford plenty of bar soap. And yet there's still part of me that's like now this is another six lathers and and the the deodorant will pop up the top and I'm like oh use it as a loofah. It's a desk. It's it's it's my my wife will say, what are you going to throw that out when I'm bleeding, I will throw it out. It is still useful. What are we made of? We're made of money?

  Luke: In reading the parts of the book where you're talking about your journey in 2017, it felt like a maybe very small turning point for you was when you finally started to tell the people who are asking you how you're doing. Yes. That you weren't doing okay.

  Gary: Yes, that was a huge turning point. I forget who oh, is Mister Rogers. If it's if it's mentionable, it's manageable. And and but where?

  Luke: Dale Rogers, your shop teacher, is a good guy. But we had a drinking problem.

  Gary: But we.

  Luke: Don't let him run the band saw after seventh period.

  Gary Gulman: Right, Exactly. But actually, I think it was it was a big turning point in in that once I started to talk about it, it felt less I was ashamed about it and people understood it and it and it allowed me, especially when I started talking about it on stage, it allowed me to connect with my audience at a at a level that I, that I, I had connected in terms of. We shared a sense of humor, but I had never connected in terms of we share a mood disorder or an understanding of what it feels like to be either lonely or hopeless or or just anxious. And that was really beautiful. I mean, that that special came out four years ago. And I get I'm not exaggerating messages every single day from people saying that they watch it or rewatch it to make them feel less stressed or they'll fall asleep listening to the album. And it just makes me so happy because I felt an obligation to share this story, because there was a time when I when I thought, Well, this is just me for the rest of my life. I'm going to be in the in the fetal position. And and if it if it weren't for the devotion of my now wife at the time, I remember thinking, would you just leave me because I'm bringing you down? And she just I what I couldn't understand was that she she really loved me. I mean, it just. But I felt so unlovable. It was something.

  Luke: I if I remember right in the book, I think you use a term talking about your depression, which is that it's been in remission for six years. Yeah, I thought that was really important. I don't think I've heard it described that way.

  Gary: Oh, that's interesting.

  Luke: Really reframe my thought about what depression is.

  Gary: Yeah, I think that was very important for me to understand. And for a long time I didn't. This is an illness and and you shouldn't be hard on yourself for having this this illness and you shouldn't be ashamed of it. And it's the same thing as a broken arm or a torn rotator cuff. You'll you'll treat it. And in the meantime, you should feel that this is just something that you're that you're living with. And also, there's the idea. When I say remission, it's something that I still have to work to fight. Every every day. I have to do my exercise and see my therapist and take my medicine and and and be with people and accept invitations to things and not isolate. So it's it's really just it reminds me of of how much I have to lose if I if I don't maintain.

  Luke: And and your doctors have told you that with this amount that you've been in remission, it's unlikely that you have another. Yes. Another episode. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  Gary: That in terms of probability that that a remission this durable is is unlikely to to return me to my former fetal position.

  Luke: Do you feel regret around calling yourself the incredible Gull because that is I think kind of a boss nickname were you using that in basketball?

  Gary: When I use it from the time there was an Incredible Hulk series when I was a child, it was for now we're just used to the Marvel Universe being on everything all the time. And then it was just Friday nights on CBS, and I watched it religiously.

  Luke: You want to talk about a show that would give you agita? Yeah, just the sad music of Bruce Banner walking out of another town where he'd Hulked out.

  Gary: Yes, IBS.

  Luke: That can give anyone depression.

  Gary: And knowing that he was going to have to buy new khakis and and an Oxford shirt. And the thing I remember saying to my to my mom because she would watch it with me on Friday nights, I would say, Why is there only one journalist interested in covering this? And it seems like this is a no brainer in terms of the Enquirer or the I forgot that that British version of the Enquirer. Yeah, Yeah. The Mirror or something like that. A green man who destroys towns and then disappears. It's surprising.

  Luke: As somebody who's been through the depression and anxiety that you have been through. I'm curious for people who know someone who's experiencing it, what was helpful in how people related to you and what was not helpful?

  Gary: Oh, that's a that's a great question. I think the most helpful thing and I had a I had a friend and she just said, let's go for a walk. And it was man, it was like the highlight of my my week and that and that just and my, my psychiatrist says this, that he will sometimes call his patient from outside their apartment and say, today's session is going to be outside and we're going to go for a walk. Because that's the one thing I will say. If you have somebody who's who's depressed or anxious, take them for a walk. It's it's it's not a cure all. And it doesn't overnight, but it is a small step. And it can it can distract you and also get your your endorphins going and some exercise. And the other thing I would I would say is that sometimes people will say, but you have so much going for you and you should be so, so grateful for what you have. And it just it's not going to sink in because you think either I have this and I don't deserve it or I have it and it's fleeting and I'm going to lose it because I'm so worthless. So that doesn't really help. But also one of the best things that a neighbor mindset and I talked about in the book, he calls me Louie because that's what I went by when I was a kid, my middle name, he said, he said, Aw Louie, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry, kid. And I just that was enough to make me feel like what a what a simple but very kind thing to say. He didn't. He didn't say, Well, if you tried running from Miles or have you have you tried any of these these things you just said, I'm so sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I haven't heard or. Yeah, let's go. But. But things like let's go for coffee or let's just watch a basketball game. Those are great things that, that at the very least get you away from your ruminations and the, the isolation and loneliness that that accompanies so much of our of our depression.

  Luke: Yeah, well, it's always been a dream for me to have you on our shows. Really? So glad my this journey has brought you here.

  Gary: I have been so in awe and just in honor of your work, both of you. And so mazel tov. Thank you. And I'm so happy.

  Luke: Gary Gulman everyone. That was Gary Gulman, recorded live at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon. His memoir, "Misfit: Growing Up Awkward in the Eighties" is available now. Sometimes checking your email, let's be honest, can be a little stressful, but we want to change that over here at Live Wire. We want to make checking your email more joyful with our weekly newsletter, which is only good news. That's all we do over here at the Live Wire newsletter. We got sneak peeks and deep dives on upcoming events, details on where you can join us live. New episode drops. And even more than that, getting this drop of joy. It's super easy too. Head over to Live Wire Radio dot org and you click Keep in touch. It takes like 30 seconds, 25 if you're speedy. So help us help you have a little more fun in your inbox with the latest from the Live Wire newsletter. This is Live Wire, of course. Each week we ask our listeners a question. This week we asked Tell us about a meaningful thing that someone did to cheer you up when you were having a hard time. Elena has been gathering up those responses. What do you see?

  Elena: Oh, these are all great. They're all great. I feel like I'm going to have a better day having read them. Here's one from Frances. Frances says, My kiddo fancies themselves a really great masseuse, and they're not bad, actually. And any time I have tension or stress, they'll run into their room and they'll drop a gift certificate for a one minute massage, which I cash in immediately.

  Luke: My mom has so many of those jars of various things that I was promising to do that I wrote down on little pieces of paper. That also reminds me, you know, I'm one of seven kids and my dad, very hard worker in his life. He would come home from the sign shop and he would sit on the couch and my sisters would put barrettes in his hair. They would be practicing their like, you know, up dos and stuff. And he would just fall asleep with like 35 little poodle plastic barrettes clipped in because it was like a head massage for him.

  Elena: That is very cute. Very, very cute. Are any of your sister's beauticians now?

  Luke: No. It looked very bad, by the way. They were not talented at it, but it was a very relaxing process for my dad, Walt Burbank. So. All right. Something else nice that someone did for one of our listeners.

  Elena: Oh, I love this one from Matt. When my wife and I had a newborn baby, my best friend snuck into the house while we were napping and did our laundry and our dishes, and we came downstairs and were delightfully confused. That is how you do it, because, you know, like, you can just be like, Can I do anything for you? Let me know if you need anything. And then nobody ever says it. You just show up with, like, stuff to put in the fridge or with your Swiffer, you know? And P.S., if you don't have a newborn baby, that never happens. Like, I've never gone downstairs and found my house miraculously cleaned.

  Luke: It's like the best burgling ever. Yeah. I love you. You're upstairs. You're coming out of a daze because you're getting no sleep with the new baby. And you hear someone rustling around downstairs and you're like, Oh, my goodness, what is happening? And you go downstairs to find someone just actually doing your dishes for you. That's like the best outcome to that story.

  Elena: That's a home invasion I can get behind.

  Luke: All right. One more nice thing that somebody did for one of our listeners.

  Elena: Okay. How about this one from Amber, who was working as a waiter or on a packed day and Amber says, I am stressing and it shows in my face. But there is this couple who is sitting quietly waiting for their food, and they stopped Amber and gave her an early tip and said, Here, I hope this cheers you up. Oh.

  Luke: That is a really, really nice thing to do. I've never thought of that. Like, I'm tipping at the end, you know, But maybe, you know, tipping in the middle boy, that probably brightens that person's day. And who knows? You know, you might get some extra special service.

  Elena: It's very Goodfellas to tip at the beginning, like the welcome shake has like a $20 bill, right? Rolled up into it. That's pretty right? Pretty cool.

  Luke: And when they're bringing out the cheesecake for dessert, they're going to like, you know, get the, like, extra large slice for you or something like, I mean, let's be honest, It's not that I'm not trying to be cynical. I'm not saying you would tip early to get the largest piece of cheesecake, but I'm just saying it wouldn't be the worst outcome.

  Elena: Yeah, never the worst outcome to get the best piece of cheesecake.

  Luke: All right. Thanks to everyone who wrote in with a response to our listener question. We got another one for next week's show, which we will reveal a little later. In the meantime, let's welcome our next guest over to the program. He is the current poet laureate of Oregon. He's also a two time individual champion of the National Poetry Slam. And he is a winner of the International World Cup Poetry Slam. So both nationally and internationally. He's really dominating in the poetry slam space. He's also the author of many books of poetry, including his latest The Tigers They Let Me and is a frequent guest right here on Live Wire. Anis Mojgani joined us on stage at the Holt Center in Eugene, Oregon. Take a listen. Hi there, Anis!

  Anis Mojgani: Hi, how are you all doing? (Great!)

  Luke: It's really good to see you.

  Anis Mojgani: Good to see you, too.

  Luke: The last time I saw you, if I remember, was at the Oregon Book Awards, which I was emceeing. And you were scheduled to give an award out.

  Anis Mojgani: That is correct.

  Luke: And about maybe 10 minutes before it was time for you to give the award, they found me backstage, and they said Anis may not make it. There's a poetry emergency somewhere and he's dealing with it. At least that is my memory of events.

  Anis Mojgani: It's it's completely spot on.

  Luke: Like, do how how does it work? Being the poet laureate, are they like, parachute you into, like, hotspots that need poetry?

  Anis Mojgani: It's poetry emergencies left and right in this day and age, you know.

  Luke: I want to mention you did make it.

  Anis Mojgani: I did make.

  Luke: You got in, like, 15 seconds before you walked on stage and gave a very nice presentation.

  Anis Mojgani: It's because I'm a professional. No, this isn't my second term for no reason. No.

  Luke: Is that that's another thing. Is that typical to have two terms?

  Anis Mojgani: It's it's it's written into, I don't know, the bylaws or whatever.

  Luke: You're not solely trying to seize power of the laureate situation in Oregon, are you? Like first you take over the course.

  Anis Mojgani: So much power, so much richer for life. Yeah. Yeah. It's written in there. Just to basically be able to have the possibility. Should it be something that's wanted? Should it be something that's needed? So it just sort of depends on, you know, kind of what would the gov want.

  Luke: I also I think you're so well suited to this job because first I'm such a fan of your writing, but also I feel like the way that you activate poetry in your life and in the lives of people in Oregon, there's just so many creative ways that you are bringing it to people and creating moments of poetry in real life. It's just not something that's happening in a in a room somewhere or in a university setting or whatever, like I think. Is that something that you have very much in your mind as the poet laureate?

  Anis Mojgani: I think so. I mean, definitely my track and journey to to this juncture in my craft, my profession, my life, whatever has been spent very much exploring. Like what? What are the ways in which poems exist and what are the ways in which that we are told that they don't exist. And, you know, I feel that way about pretty much all avenues of art. But I think specifically over the course of of my term, I was thinking a lot more about that. Like, I remember some years ago listening to the poet Naomi Shihab Nye on the podcast on being and one of the things that Krista Tippett, the host, had had mentioned to her was Naomi referencing the idea that we think in poems and that we are living inside of poems. And I loved thinking about what does that mean with regards to how many poems are existing around us? How many poems are we participating in? And that, like the job of us, isn't even necessarily to make a poem out of this poem. Like the poem exists, whether it has language or not delivered to it. You know, the trees exist, whether we climb them, the trees exist, whether we follow them, whether we dismiss them. And so I think, particularly within my time as laureate, the things that I've been interested in is what are the ways in which that I might put that idea, that seed into somebody's thought that like they are allowed to bear witness to a poem, even if they don't consider themselves a poet, even if they don't write a poem from that experience.

  Luke: Could you read us something from the Tigers they let me. In fact, maybe the title track. I don't know if that's how we refer to poems, but that's what I'm.

  Anis Mojgani: Referring to tonight, at least, is called the Tigers.

  They let me. The Tigers. They let me touch them. They were so soft. Even went out the front door. They left with their softness. Even when they left with my arm. Even when seemingly to like a puppy holding, but a plush whale squeaking in their mouth. It's not that it didn't hurt, but there was no blood. And another arm arrived from out of my body like a daffodil out of the winter. And now, well, I have one arm and at the same time I have two arms. And at the same time I have many arms, All the arms that have been taken or lost or given freely away. I have them too, still somewhere under this earth of me, and they being unseen, being but a memory are able to touch what isn't there. But they are still the same, able to lift what is invisible. And there are a lot of tigers in the world to be touched from afar. Their softness. A lot of tigers, whether flush with rich fur or belly waxing and backs bowed, meeting in the middle, broken tooth and belly concave as a waning moon. There are lots of tigers and many flowers of petals, jugs of burnt clay clouds moving over pastures and songs made rich by the throats that love them into loudness made rich from the earth up to the elbows planted and pulled into the third months end softening. It takes a lot of arms, a lot of arms to touch us all. I am a tiger to.

  Luke: Anis Mojgani reading from the Tigers They let me. Another thing that came up in this book, a couple of places were bathtubs. I don't know if you're a big bath taker.

  Anis Mojgani: I'm really not actually.

  Luke: A lot of bathtub content. Speaking of which could we actually...

  Anis Mojgani: Like like the like I've had, I guess like people in my life that I've loved where baths were like, big parts of their life. Yeah. And as a child, definitely the bathtub was a big part of my life. And there's just something about the bathtub that is like, I don't know, it's. It's like a sexy object.

  Luke: Yes. In this book, it is.

  Anis Mojgani: A very functional object. Like, it just, like, spans realities, you know?

  Luke: Yeah. And now they make those little, like, trays that you can put over and put like a glass of wine on it and like Anis' book. You never need to get out of the bathtub potentially, for the rest of your life. Speaking of which, could we actually hear another poem? And this one does have a bathtub about it. I don't spoil anything. This is it went May, June, June, June, June, October.

  Anis Mojgani: That is correct. All right. Her in the tub calling. I'm here. Upon me coming into the house and through the bathroom door, her smile coming out of the steam, the freckles across her cheeks and shoulders rising out of the milky bath like pebbles becoming an archipelago in the hot air. I kiss her shorelines, Her lips I love so much Our smiles becoming one my face wet from hers up to my wrists, my hands in the water, her elbows ourselves deepening in the wet together while outside the bathroom's wrinkled window the figs on the tree in the yard. We're not yet then in bloom when they grew on the smaller tree upfront, like a bruise becoming a flower, but still in the before of the blossom, purple and heavy with seed blanketed by sweet. She brought me some from the bowl she filled with them. They were better than knowing a poem by heart. They were a poem known by the heart. She picked more and we sliced them together into small bits, laid them out on the layers of pens, and she dried them out overnight. They were so soft, so delicious, nothing cold about them. But they were not plums. But a different poem from a different tree in her yard. This still was in summer, perhaps, and probably after or before a day. We swam, jumping off the hot stones like we were somewhere in the Mediterranean and not Milwaukie, Oregon, leaping into the green wide place of the river where it binds past the big houses, curves around elk, rock and head south into the sun where we would kiss upon rising from under the water, our faces wet climb out of the waves made from the boats passing to sit and marvel at the beauteous height of the stone wall that rises on the other side of the river like we were swimming outside a palace, escaping its shadow for the kingdom of our own sunlight, which let the day dry, our skin warm and then jump in again. What a marvelous time. June is the month of both our births. A month of both our hurt hearts, birthing themselves again, especially when the month stretches itself through the months to follow as if again, birthing itself again side by side in the splash, rising like freckles out of the water, waving, becoming archipelagos islands that curve towards and under the water connecting into one another. Thank you.

  Luke: That is the Anis Mojgani, right here on Live Wire. From his latest book, The Tigers. They let me you were sort of describing it a little bit earlier, but I'm wondering, like what? Sometimes if I'm out doing something with my girlfriend and she sees me taking a weird picture of something, she goes, You're putting that in Instagram, aren't you? Like, you're making an Instagram post. You're making a tweet right now. What are you doing? Do the people you're with, whether it's friends, loved ones, know if you're composing a poem in your mind like this? You're doing a poem right now, aren't you? You're starting to do a poem.

  Anis Mojgani: They are like, I don't know if it's like an actual thing. It's definitely sort of like will surface as a joke or ribbing of some sort, you know, like, not necessarily like, why don't you write a poem about it, but, you know.

  Luke: Stop poeming yourself.

  Anis Mojgani: You know, basically more or less, Yeah.

  Luke: Do you have a sense in a moment, like the the one that you describe there that this is something that may come back in your work? Or is it only like upon reflection?

  Anis Mojgani: Oh, that's a hard question. You know, I think it depends. There's definitely moments where a poem starts taking shape inside of the moment. And I don't know if it's like the moment speaking or the poet inside of my head trying to, like, observe and make something. And when it is feels like that, there's definitely, I think, a larger part of me that's trying to push them away and just simply wants to me to like, be living my life. And then there's the other times where there's just sort of something that's happening and it if it wants to be if I want it to become a poem at some point, it behooves me to to speak to it right then and there. You know, I think particularly with with this book, that there's a number of poems where I sort of sat and reflected on on things that I wanted to put forth and talk about and write about. Like, I write a lot of poems, at least previously and still do. I write a lot of poems that I really love seeing where the the lives that we lead, um, end up becoming kind of different stories while still being connected to the truth of whatever occurred. And with these, I really wanted to, to, to, to kind of step away a little bit from some of the magical realism that I really love infusing into my work and seeing what happens if I'm just rerecording purely my experiences and then seeing what happens. So that happened a lot with this book.

  Luke: Well, I would just ask that you not push the poetry too far away because I really love your writing and I love your book. Let it just run right through your brother. Thank you so much. Anis Mojgani, everyone, Poet laureate of Oregon and the Tigers. They let me.

  Anis Mojgani: Good to see you!

  Luke: Thank you for coming on Live Wire! That was the fabulous Anis Mojgani right here on Live Wire. His latest book, The Tigers They Let Me is available now. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarello. We have to take a very quick break, but don't go anywhere. When we come back, we are going to hear a song from singer songwriter Olive Klug. You may have heard Olive on Tik-tok they're famous over there. So stick around to hear it on Live Wire in a moment. Welcome back to Live Wire from PRX. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarello. All right, before we get to our musical guest this week, a little preview of what we are bringing you for next week's show. We're going to be talking to the one and only Cheryl Strayed, the person behind Tiny Beautiful Things. It's a book that is having its 10th anniversary. It's also now a TV series starring Kathryn Hahn. We're going to talk to Cheryl about what it's like being portrayed by an American treasure. And this is the second time that's happened because Reese Witherspoon also played Cheryl, of course, in the movie Wild. And we're going to talk to writer Joseph Earl Thomas about his memoir Sink, which The New York Times calls an extraordinary memoir of a black American Boyhood. We're also going to get some music from Stefanie Anne Johnson, so do not miss that episode of Live Wire. Hey, did you know Live Wire Radio is also available as a podcast? Yes, it is featuring the same engaging conversations, live music and original comedy that you find on the radio show. But now you can listen to it when you want to and where you want to go to Live Wire Radio dot org to download the podcast or anywhere else you get your podcasts. This is Live Wire. Our musical guest this week has a sound that's reminiscent of the golden age of American folk music, but with a uniquely modern lyrical sensibility. How modern? Well, they've got millions of views on TikTok, many of them from me. Their debut album, Don't You Dare Make Me Jaded. It's one of my favorite names for an album I've heard in a long time. This is Olive Klug, who joined us on stage at the Holt Center in Eugene, Oregon. Check it out. Olive, welcome to Live Wire. Thanks for being here.

  Olive Klug: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here.

  Luke: I've been really, really getting into your music of late and I was curious. You grew up mostly in Portland. What were what were you listening to? What were your parents playing? Kind of what was your musical life like as a kid?

  Olive Klug: Well, my dad was like, really indoctrinated me, like, not even just like, played music for me. He like, in the car. I remember he would like, play classic rock and classic folk music. And he would quiz me on it and he would be like, I'll give you a dollar if you tell me what band this is and what album it's from. And then I would be like, Oh, that's that's Led Zeppelin is from Led Zeppelin . Or like, something like that. But, you know, I feel like I got a very good seventies music education from my dad. And the thing the most important thing I took from that for myself was my love of Joni Mitchell. I've been like, obsessed with Joni Mitchell. Yeah, since I was, you know, like three years old. And when I was like seven, I would walk around the house singing both sides now, and people were like, You don't know life from both sides now. Yeah, But yeah, I think that I really am thankful for that music education. But when I was in high school, I was in high school in the early 20 tens and that was kind of like all of that. Like indie rock was really popular. I was really into The Shins, I was really into Doctor Dog and like the Arctic Monkeys and I feel like indie rock needs to make a comeback, but I'm not going to do it.

  Luke: You're not. You're not the one for it. I'm curious because a lot of your music has been really well received, particularly on social media. Do you have any thought about when you're writing a song, Does any part of your brain think, will this be something that people like on Tik Tok and maybe a shorter version or like, you know, via these other what would seem like kind of new ish ways for people to experience music? Does that factor into your creation of music?

  Olive Klug: Unfortunately, it does. I think that's been really a difficult thing for me and I think for my generation of songwriters is to think about, you know, things that are really catchy and catchy and about something very specific tend to do well on Tik Tok and things that are maybe, you know, have a slower build or maybe don't have as clear of a, you know, overt meaning or don't necessarily do quite as well. And so sometimes I'll write a song that I really love, but I'm like, Oh, well, I know this isn't going to do well on Tik Tok. And that's it's a difficult thing. It's definitely been a struggle for me in my creative process recently, but I'm kind of choosing to not care about that response quite as much and just use it as a tool.

  Luke: I love the title of this album, Don't you dare make me Jaded. Where does that come from? Who are you telling that to?

  Olive Klug: Well, it's actually a quote from a song that I wrote called Casting Spells, and that song is just about taking the magic of childhood into your adult life and taking kind of your belief that people are good and you're believe that the world is a beautiful place into adulthood and not letting kind of the difficulties of our current lived experience make you jaded and to keep your hope alive. And even though that's really hard, that's what I'm trying my best to do. So.

  Luke: Well. Yes. What song are we going to hear here at the Hult Center in Eugene, Oregon?

  Olive Klug: We are going to hear Raining in June.

  Luke: All right. This is Olive Klug here on Live Wire.

  Olive Klug: Song is specifically about growing up in Portland and hating when I got out of school and it was still raining for like a full month.

  [Olive Klug plays Raining in June]

  Luke: Olive Klug right here on Live Wire. That was Olive Klug, Their debut album, Don't You Dare Make Me Jaded is out and available now. Yeah, that's going to do it for this week's episode of Live Wire. A very huge thanks to our guests, Gary Gulman, Anis Mojgani and Olive Klug. Live Wire's brought to you in part by Alaska Airlines.

  Elena: Laura Hadden is our executive producer. Heather de Michele is our executive director and our producer and editor is Melanie Sevcenko. Molly Pettit is our technical director. And our House Sound is by D. Neil Blake. Tre Hester is our assistant editor, our marketing and production manager is Karen Pan. Rosa Garcia is our operations associate. Jackie Ibarra is our production fellow and Ant Diaz is our intern. Our house band is Ethan Fox Tucker, Sam Tucker, Ayal Alves and A. Walker Spring, who also composes our music. This episode was mixed by Molly Pettit and Tre Hester.

  Luke: Additional funding provided by the James F and Marion L Miller Foundation. Livewire was created by Robin Tenenbaum and Kate Sokoloff. This week we'd like to thank members Thanh Tan of Portland, Oregon, and Michelle Ulick Rosenthalof Seattle, Washington. For more information about the show, how you can listen to our podcast, head on over to Live Wire Radio dot org. I'm Luke Burbank. For Elena Passarello and the whole Live Wire team. Thanks for listening. And we will see you next week.

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