Episode 633

with Emily Nussbaum and Pink Martini

Pulitzer Prize-winning author Emily Nussbaum (The New Yorker) unpacks her book Cue the Sun: The Invention of Reality TV, which explores our obsession and distaste for what she calls "dirty documentary;" pianist Thomas Lauderdale and vocalist China Forbes of Pink Martini chat about their 30-year journey with the genre-bending musical group, before performing "Una Notte a Napoli" from their album Hang on Little Tomato. Plus, host Luke Burbank and announcer Elena Passarello hear from our audience members about an imaginary reality TV show they'd like to see.

Emily Nussbaum

The New Yorker's TV Critic

Emily Nussbaum is a staff writer at The New Yorker, where she’s worked since 2011, originally as the magazine’s television critic. In 2016, she won the Pulitzer Prize for criticism. Previously, she was the culture editor for New York, where she created the Approval Matrix. She is the author of I Like to Watch: Arguing My Way Through the TV Revolution, which was a finalist for the PEN/Diamonstein-Spielvogel Award for the Art of the Essay. She lives in Brooklyn with her husband, Clive Thompson, and their two children. Website • Instagram

Pink Martini

Portland's "Little Orchestra" & International Musical Sensations

Now in its 30th year, the "little orchestra" Pink Martini was founded by Thomas Lauderdale in Portland, Oregon in 1994. Drawing inspiration from around the globe and crossing genres like classical, jazz and vintage pop, their breakthrough 1997 hit "Sympathique" became an overnight sensation in France. Featuring a dozen multilingual musicians and songs in 25 languages, they've performed worldwide with more than 70 orchestras, including the Los Angeles Philharmonic at the Hollywood Bowl, the Boston Pops, the National Symphony at the Kennedy Center, the Sydney Symphony at the Sydney Opera House, and the BBC Concert Orchestra at Royal Albert Hall in London. Notable appearances include The Late Show with David Letterman, Late Night with Conan O’Brien, and The Tonight Show with Jay Leno. On their indie label Heinz Records, Pink Martini has released nine studio albums selling over 3 million copies globally. The genre-defying band's unique sound transcends generations and cultures, blending global musical influences with a modern, exuberant spirit. Website • Instagram

Show Notes

Best News [00:01:07]

• Elena’s story: “8-year-old who drove to an Ohio Target in mom's SUV caught on dashcam video”

• Luke’s story: “10-year-old who went missing in woods found with help of thermal imaging drone”

Emily Nussbaum [00:06:48]

• Emily’s new book: “Cue the Sun! The Invention of Reality TV”

• The “Approval Matrix” via New York Magazine: nymag.com/tags/the-approval-matrix

• First appearance of the “Approval Matrix”: nymag.com/arts/all/approvalmatrix/approval-matrix-2011-8-29

• Programs mentioned in conversation: Queens for a Day, The Candid Microphone, Candid Camera, The Apprentice, The Adventures of Ozzie and Harriet, Survivor, The Bachelor, Cops, Manhunt, An American Family, The Real World, The Real Housewives, The Truman Show, and Manhunt.

Pink Martini [00:30:39]

• While explaining how he started Pink Martini, Thomas Lauderdale mentions the 1994 Oregon Ballot Measure 19, the Oregon Citizens Alliance, Pee-Wee Herman’s Christmas Special (Christmas at Pee-wee's Playhouse), and doing a series of concerts with the Del Rubio triplets.

• More information about Pink Martini can be found on their website: pinkmartini.com/about

• Thomas also mentions Mammoth Records, his admiration for the band Squirrel Nut Zippers, and how the label was ultimately sold to Disney in 1997.

• Pink Martini has performed and collaborated with Iranian singer Googoosh, who Thomas Lauderdale calls the “Taylor Swift” of Iran during the 1970s.

• Speaking of collaborations, China Forbes tells us how the band serendipitously encountered Henri Salvador in the streets of Paris, France, as he stepped out of a cab they had hailed while looking for cigarettes for Thomas. They all later went on to perform at the Hollywood Bowl together in 2007.

• The song performed by Pink Martini in this episode is called “Una Notte A Napoli,” which they wrote with Italian actress and songwriter Alba Clemente and DJ Johnny Dynell. Lyrics can be found here.

Station Location Identification Examination (SLIE) [00:44:40]

• This week’s station shoutout goes to KIDS-FM 88.1 in Grants, New Mexico.

• Fun facts about the city were found here, including a reference to the Louis L’Amour novel, Flint.

• Full Transcript

  Elena Passarello: [00:00:00] From PRX. It's Live Wire! This week. Writer Emily Nussbaum. [00:00:12][11.6]

  Emily Nussbaum: [00:00:13] I think a lot of the reason that people watch reality TV is to see that little nugget of somebody being authentically out of control, even if it's inside a lot of contrivance. [00:00:21][8.7]

  Elena Passarello: [00:00:22] With music from Pink Martini. [00:00:24][1.3]

  Thomas Lauderdale (Pink Martini): [00:00:25] To if it wasn't for, you know, the Oregon Citizens Alliance, the Measure 13 campaign and Pee-Wee Herman Christmas special. This band would not have existed. [00:00:34][9.0]

  Elena Passarello: [00:00:36] And our fabulous house band. I'm your announcer, Elena Passarello, and now the host of Live Wire. Luke Burbank. [00:00:45][8.8]

  Luke Burbank: [00:00:47] Hey, thank you so much Elena Passarello, thanks to everyone for tuning in to Live Wire this week. We have a really, really fun show in store for you. We're going to help Pink Martini celebrate 30 years of making music. That is coming up in a moment. First, though, of course, we got to kick things off the way we always do with the best news we've heard all week. This. This is our little Live Wire reminder that there is good news happening out there in the world. Elena, what is the best news that you've heard all week? [00:01:18][31.2]

  Elena Passarello: [00:01:19] Okay. I don't know if this is the best news, but this is definitely the news that made me laugh the hardest. [00:01:23][4.2]

  Luke Burbank: [00:01:24] All right. [00:01:24][0.1]

  Elena Passarello: [00:01:25] So it starts out a little scary, honestly. A couple of Sundays ago, there was a family in Bedford, Ohio, who realized it was about 9 a.m. that on a Sunday morning they realized they hadn't seen their eight year old daughter in like two hours and they searched the house for her. She was nowhere to be found. And then they checked the ring cam footage on their front door and they saw her get into the family car, which is a Nissan Rogue, very appropriately named. And this kid was how old? Eight years old. What? Drive away. So they call the police, obviously. And a little bit later, the police get a phone call that there seems to be a very small child driving a white Nissan Rogue several miles away from the family house. [00:02:17][51.2]

  Luke Burbank: [00:02:17] I bet that's the same kid. [00:02:17][0.3]

  Elena Passarello: [00:02:18] You think so? You know, I am not the world's greatest driver. As you may have noticed, the one time that you rode in the car with me. [00:02:26][7.5]

  Luke Burbank: [00:02:26] It was noted. [00:02:26][0.2]

  Elena Passarello: [00:02:27] But the person who called the police saying that there was a child on the road driving, got a little footage and I am a better driver than this eight year old. Okay. Although it seemed like she was respecting the law of traffic lights, luckily she was swerving all over the road. But it was so early and it was a Sunday morning, there wasn't really anybody on the road. So now the hunt was on to figure out where this kid was going, and they found her at the closest target, which was 11 miles away. She made it all the way. It's like a 25 minute drive. She made it all the way to Target. They didn't report on like, how she parked the car, which I'm kind of curious about. Like, did she back in parallel park, you know? Or was it just like, sprawled across like a series of, of spaces? They found her inside of the target. Drinking a Frappuccino. [00:03:15][48.5]

  Luke Burbank: [00:03:17] My God. Other than the fact that she's going to juvie, this describes basically probably her best life at eight years old. [00:03:23][5.9]

  Elena Passarello: [00:03:23] Yeah. And, you know, it just makes you wonder, how often does that family go to target that that child has memorized the 11 mile journey to get there? And apparently when she got there, like the first thing she said was, I hit a mailbox. [00:03:36][12.5]

  Luke Burbank: [00:03:37] What does it say if she got in big trouble over this or was it just kind of like all's well that ends well? [00:03:43][5.6]

  Elena Passarello: [00:03:43] The county police department released a really funny tweet about it and said, don't worry, we let her finish her Frappuccino before we took her in. So other than the fact that she was uninjured and then she got to finish her drink, that's all the information we have. [00:03:56][12.3]

  Luke Burbank: [00:03:57] Would you believe, Elena, that my best new story also involves a missing child And there's a happy ending as well. [00:04:04][7.3]

  Elena Passarello: [00:04:05] A Frappuccino ending. [00:04:05][0.7]

  Luke Burbank: [00:04:06] No Frappuccino, but a happy Pacino ending. It involves a ten year old in Shreveport, Louisiana, or at least near Shreveport named Payton Sennington. And Payton apparently sleepwalk from time to time. Her family knows this, but usually they might just find her in some part of the house where she's, you know, not supposed to be at three in the morning. Well, recently there was a whole other thing that happened with her, which is she slept walked right out of the house and into the woods. [00:04:33][27.9]

  Elena Passarello: [00:04:35] My. [00:04:35][0.0]

  Luke Burbank: [00:04:35] God. Like, late at night. And her family figured out that Peyton was nowhere to be found and started looking for her and could not find her in the middle of the night. Which is where a guy named Josh Clover comes in. He hears about this search that's going on for little Peyton. He's like 40 miles away, but he works for a drone company, so he drives the 40 miles to where they're looking for Peyton. And he puts this drone up that has thermal sensing cameras on. [00:05:08][33.0]

  Elena Passarello: [00:05:08] Yeah, right. Yeah. Like they. Like they go to look for wild hogs with those things. [00:05:12][4.0]

  Luke Burbank: [00:05:13] Right. And like, I've actually seen video of this. I mean, it is absolutely remarkable. I mean, many human beings were out looking for Peyton without success. This drone is just cruising around and then just sees this little form of a ten year old missing one of her shoes who's just curled up, sleeping on the ground, lying perfectly still. Peyton's best friend's dad was also out there searching for her and was the closest person to these coordinates. And he runs over to her and he scoops her up. And she is surprisingly fine. She's just sleeping in the woods. [00:05:53][40.4]

  Elena Passarello: [00:05:54] Camping, like. [00:05:55][0.5]

  Luke Burbank: [00:05:56] The least worried about this of anyone. But anyway, it was just this amazing story. And also, like I would say, a big win for the sort of PR department of drones because honestly, they're. Kind of on my last nerve as a thing. [00:06:10][14.8]

  Elena Passarello: [00:06:11] It's amazing, too, that that gentleman was, like, 40 miles away. Middle of the night, I'm on it. And, like, answered the call because he knew that he could help. That's. That's fabulous news. [00:06:20][8.4]

  Luke Burbank: [00:06:20] You know, that's a really good point, Elena. This is not just a win for technology. This is a win for kindhearted people like Josh Clover. And hopefully we will continue to coexist peacefully with our technological overlords. I just like to get that out there right now. All right. Kids being okay when for a moment we thought they weren't going to be okay is the best news that we heard all week. All right, let's get into the show. Our first guest is a staff writer at The New Yorker where she started out as their TV critic back in 2011. By 2016, she'd won a Pulitzer for her writing. Before that, she was at New York magazine, where she created this thing that if you know, you know, it's called the Approval Matrix. It's amazing kind of way of categorizing things. We would put this person in highbrow slash brilliant. That's the quadrant she would be in. Her new book is Cue The Sun: The Invention of Reality TV. And it traces the origin, evolution and impact of reality television. Emily Nussbaum joined us onstage at the Alberta Rose Theatre in Portland, Oregon, to talk about the book. Take a listen. Emily, welcome to the show. [00:07:39][79.0]

  Emily Nussbaum: [00:07:40] I'm glad to be here. [00:07:41][0.7]

  Luke Burbank: [00:07:42] Okay. I when I think about reality television, I feel like we are the only generation lame enough to have invented it. Like we are the only group that has ingested enough forever plastics to think this is a good idea. And yet that is not the case. This book starts in the 1940s. What are the origins of what we now think of as reality TV? [00:08:04][21.8]

  Emily Nussbaum: [00:08:04] Well, first of all, I've got to say I also thought of reality television as a modern art form that was created at the turn of the century and an enormous mistake that had to do with the Internet. Modern narcissism. I mean, that's when I came up with the idea for the book. It was only after I started doing the research that I realized I had no idea what I was talking about. And actually, it started in the 40s with shows like Queen for a Day and Candid Microphone, which predated Candid Camera. [00:08:33][28.2]

  Luke Burbank: [00:08:33] And by the time I found out about Alan Funt, he was a very old man on television pulling, like, corny pranks. But that was not where things started for him. [00:08:43][9.3]

  Emily Nussbaum: [00:08:43] Yeah, things started on the radio and actually his show was part of this boom in the 40s that people thought of not as reality, but as the audience participation trend. And everybody was horrified by it because they thought there's something really damning about what's happening to the culture. All of these cheap, tawdry shows that have regular people kind of spilling their guts on the air, being put under pressure. So there was all this stuff in the media. There was a big moral panic about it. And honestly, when I was reading those pieces from the 40s, they're pretty much identical to what happened when Survivor came out at the turn of the century. So the book ended up running from 1947 to around 2007. It starts with radio. It ends with The Apprentice, as did everything else. Yeah. [00:09:29][46.4]

  Luke Burbank: [00:09:30] Yeah, right. Wow. Just to put a fine point on all of our existence on this planet currently. Let's talk about Queen For a Day a little bit, because as I've been telling people about the book and about the origins of this audience, participation of reality programing, I was truly shocked that that show was legal. [00:09:50][19.4]

  Emily Nussbaum: [00:09:51] Well, not only was it legal, it was probably the most popular audience participation show. It was a show. There was essentially a contest, a sort of beauty contest over which woman had the ugliest life. So it was a panel of five women would be interviewed by the host, and they would tell terrible stories of, you know, poverty being beaten by their husbands, like sick children, really dark material. And then the audience and it was a live audience just like this. And people would applaud. And there was a sort of clap ometer that would measure who had the worst life, and that person was the queen for a day. And she would get a crown, a robe, scepter, and then she'd be showered with gifts. And this started as a big radio hit. And then it became a huge TV hit when live television started. And it was a show that people looked down on, but that women really loved like it was part of the you can really trace Queen for a Day running through history. You know, even with shows like The Bachelor and stuff that are real women's culture that people also find simultaneously disgusting and misogynist and also a real bonding group experience. And there are parts of Queen for a Day that actually I do think are weirdly liberatory because nobody else on TV was talking about working class women's poverty experiences. You know, it was the age of Ozzie and Harriet. [00:11:14][82.8]

  Luke Burbank: [00:11:15] It seems like that's a theme that sort of runs through the book about reality television, which is, on the one hand, it's predatory and oftentimes taking people's real lives or their real feelings and turning them into entertainment. But it also has a lot of very genius television making and storytelling, you know, and like innovation. [00:11:33][18.1]

  Emily Nussbaum: [00:11:34] Yeah, genuine innovation. I mean, there are parts of it that are very dark. I mean, reality TV and reality radio existed because it was cheap. They didn't want to pay writers and they didn't want to pay actors. So a lot of the reason for the shows was to create like a strike breaker and something that you could just pour out content. But at the same time, under those conditions, they came up with all sorts of innovative stuff that's influenced everything in the culture. And I had to kind of define what reality TV was in the book, and I ended up calling it Dirty Documentary. [00:12:05][30.9]

  Luke Burbank: [00:12:06] Yeah. [00:12:06][0.0]

  Emily Nussbaum: [00:12:07] And Dirty documentary to me was basically the fancy pants ideas of cinema verité, kinds of work that people think of as just, you know, observing and collecting the truth and then cutting it like a drug with something that would speed it up, put pressure on people. And so you cut it with the soap opera. You cut it with the game show. With the prank show. You turn it into little clips like cops. And that enables you to have this pressure be put on people over and over again. And from that all of the stuff poured out, some of which I actually do admire. I mean, I could say a lot of negative things, but, you know, like the Survivor format is kind of a masterpiece that I think people take for granted. And I didn't think this when I started writing the book, but by the end of writing it, I had written two full chapters about that. [00:12:54][47.3]

  Luke Burbank: [00:12:54] So I want to talk a little bit more about Survivor in a moment and also a less successful show, Manhunt, you know? So that's where we got to take a quick break here on Live Wire I love to see that kind of excitement from the guest. It's so rare. This is Live Wire from NPR. We're talking to New Yorker writer and critic Emily Nussbaum about her book, Cue The Sun: The Invention of Reality TV. We have to take a very quick break, but don't go anywhere. We will be right back. Welcome back to Live Wire from NPR. I'm Luke Burbank. Here with Elena Passarello, we're at the Alberta Rose Theatre in Portland, Oregon. We're talking to New Yorker writer and critic Emily Nussbaum about her new book, Cue the Sun: The Invention of Reality TV. You write pretty extensively in this book, actually, about a kind of documentary series from PBS called An American Family, about the loud family. Where does that fit into this story? [00:15:11][136.9]

  Emily Nussbaum: [00:15:12] This is really my favorite chapter in the book, and I think this show should be much more widely known. When I was talking about mixing documentary with things, that was the first real reality soap opera. But the truth is, it was created as what was meant to be a highbrow documentary. It's just that when it came out, it was viewed and argued about as a reality show, and it created the first reality stars. Basically, it was about this well-off family in California, the Louds. And in the course of the series Pat Loud, who I talked to for the book, I interviewed all the Living Louds and the people who made the show, the Raymonds. She went through divorce with her husband. She asked her husband for a divorce on camera. And the other big part of the show was her son, Lance Loud, who's 19 year old gay artistic guy living in the Chelsea Hotel in New York. And it was an absolute shock to have this material on TV for people to see a divorce happen in 1973 on television, to see a gay man who was not just openly gay, but like physically charismatic, flamboyant in a way that really got under people's skin. And the show was just explosive. Like every newspaper and magazine were filled with debates about what it meant to have people spill their guts in this way. And it turned the Louds into huge stars that a lot of people hated and put down because they were appearing so much in public. But a lot of people love them, too. And I do think that Lance Loud in particular, is just this visionary figure. He was the first reality star to really understand that he was out in public and to use his charisma in a way that really violated old ideas about what was private and what was public. [00:16:53][101.4]

  Luke Burbank: [00:16:55] If you are my age, you can't talk about reality TV without speaking the sacred name of the Real World, which was, you know, just the sort of video wallpaper to my life as a teenager and 20s and 30s. And let's be honest, sometimes 40s person. But you you interviewed John Murray, one of the creators who actually was inspired by an American family, among other things. Also the Up series by Michael Apted, which I've been obsessed with. [00:17:22][27.5]

  Emily Nussbaum: [00:17:22] Yes, absolutely. Those were the two inspirations for him to get into this whole idea of trying to mix documentary with other forms. But he was 17 and he wasn't out of the closet. And he saw Lance loud on TV. And I have to say, like several people that I interviewed, he saw Lance loud and was like, what is what is going on? Like, it was sort of a beacon drawing him to this material. And he and Mary Ellis Bunim created the real world for people who are not obsessive Gen-X people. If you don't know, it was about seven strangers picked to live in a house. To find out what happens when people stop being polite and start getting real. [00:17:56][33.9]

  Luke Burbank: [00:17:57] That's exactly what it is. Do you feel like the real world walked so that Ronnie could run? And by that I mean my generation was just raised on the real world. So the Real Housewives and things like that seemed totally normal. Like there was this kind of substrate of reality TV watching that was laid so that these other shows then could come along and the people like me would be predisposed to buy into them. [00:18:20][22.9]

  Emily Nussbaum: [00:18:20] Well, I do think that that idea of performing your life as a soap opera that began with shows like an American Family and definitely much more with the Real World, it shaped everybody who auditioned for those shows. I mean, the thing I always say about reality TV, as opposed to other things, is that, you know, on a scripted show, you have writers, you have actors, they perform, and then people watch it. But a reality show is about a relationship between the people behind the camera and the people on it. But all you ever see is the residue. It's only people who work in the industry who really understand the secrets of how that's made. [00:18:53][32.8]

  Luke Burbank: [00:18:53] And that's like soft scripting. [00:18:54][1.1]

  Emily Nussbaum: [00:18:55] Yeah, this, this is sort of what's traced in the later part of the book is the growth of soft scripting, which is essentially where instead of setting up a circumstance that people are inside and on camera, you just say, Why don't you guys go into the kitchen and have a fight and then you walk out on the porch and throw a cup. And so they're improvising, but it's really a, you know, a collaboration. And one of the things I point out in the book is that the faker a show is the more ethical it is in a lot of ways, because when you're doing that, the people know they're doing fake drama and some of the purer shows have the stronger moral problems with them because they're doing authentic things under pressure and they're out of control. And I think a lot of the reason that people watch reality TV is to see that little nugget. Somebody being authentically out of control, even if it's inside a lot of contrivance. [00:19:46][50.8]

  Luke Burbank: [00:19:47] This is Live Wire from PRX. We're talking to Emily Nussbaum about her new book, Cue the Sun: The Invention of Reality TV. Cue the Sun is like the perfect name for this book. Can you explain the origin of that? [00:19:58][11.2]

  Emily Nussbaum: [00:19:59] It's The Truman Show. I don't know if people know the movie, but that movie is just a masterpiece. I just rewatched it and, you know, it's funny because the movie, which is about Truman, who raised essentially in what's a global hit reality show, was made before Survivor and the big boom at the turn of the century. And it is so prescient and really not just about reality television, but about the entire culture. And it's a broader kind of existential movie. But the thing the reason I chose it for the title is that it's really about the relationship between the star and the creator and this tense, dynamic, unpleasant, manipulative, but also very tender and complex and intimate relationship. And that's a lot of what I was trying to write about, was trying to help people both who hate these shows and people who love these shows to understand not just where they came from, but how they're made. Because I think the more people understand the nature of this craft and the community of people who make these shows, the better that they can see these shows with clear eyes. And I mean, then both a critical and a celebratory way. You don't really understand what these shows are unless you understand how they're made. [00:21:09][70.6]

  Luke Burbank: [00:21:11] You mentioned the sort of boom and bust cycle of reality television, and it'll get written off and they'll say, you know, never going to make these again. And then someone will make one. It's a big hit. And there's all these kind of, you know, remarks that are lot latching on to the big animal that's making all the money that would be Survivor. And then in the wake of Survivor, there are all these other shows, including one called Manhunt. [00:21:32][20.7]

  Emily Nussbaum: [00:21:33] Yes. This is you know, it's funny because nobody, I'm sure has ever heard of the show. I became so obsessed with it during my research that I reached out to pretty much everyone I could find who was involved. And it was a survivor rip off that was supposed to have had John Cena in it as one of many like a bunch of bounty hunters on an island. And literally everything that could go wrong with a show during this reality boom went wrong with this show. It's the most hilarious, nightmarish scenario for the creators of the show. But one of the main things that happened was that they put the cast members in this hotel, and then there was a big delay in production. And they also had to, because of budgetary reasons, cut the pot in half so that the. [00:22:15][42.1]

  Luke Burbank: [00:22:15] Prize, the prize was going to win. [00:22:17][1.5]

  Emily Nussbaum: [00:22:17] The prize that they were going to win. So they had told them that it was going to be cut in half. In the meanwhile, they had all bonded with one another and fallen really in love. They were all these young, athletic people. I talked to one of them who was on the show, and then one night they were sitting around drinking and they said, Why don't we just conspire against the show? We'll just why don't we just split the money? We're very close. So I think this is the single successful attempt to unionize in reality television. There are a lot of other things that went wrong with the show, but I have to say, everyone thought John Cena was excellent. He was very, very in character as about the. [00:22:51][33.8]

  Luke Burbank: [00:22:51] Cream rises to the top. [00:22:52][0.9]

  Emily Nussbaum: [00:22:52] Yeah. Anyway, I found this story a lot more interesting than a lot of successful shows. The disaster is more fascinating. [00:22:59][6.7]

  Luke Burbank: [00:23:00] I'm wondering if if you think that reality TV, as we think about it, will continue to exist into the long future when there's so much other stuff now that I think is kind of scratching that itch, like on Tik Tok, you know entitled Karen gets owned and the self-checkout at Target or whatever like is that reality TV just in very small doses and might that push out this more produced stuff. [00:23:24][23.7]

  Emily Nussbaum: [00:23:24] Yeah I think the biggest thing that has changed during the later period, I mean, the whole thing has to do with technology, but it also has to do with the fact that during the period that I write about, there were famous people and non-famous people, and then there was this shocking set of non-famous people who unaccountably became famous. That's not true anymore. There's this huge continuum because of online fame, and everybody has access to the technology. And so lots of ordinary people have followers online and there's this whole middle ground. And so, yeah, I think a lot of the things on Tik Tok and on Instagram and influencers and people sort of branding themselves, they they are their own reality producers. And I think people do find that just as entertaining. But I don't think the industry is going anywhere. I really think these shows have a major following. And again, you know, you just it's because they're non-unionized and inexpensive to make. So even when they're flops, they're kind of worth making for the industry. I mean, I'm not good at predicting the future, but I don't think the genre is going to go anywhere. [00:24:27][62.6]

  Luke Burbank: [00:24:28] This is Live Wire radio. We were talking to Emily Nussbaum about her new book. Cue the Sun. Okay. And we're going to try something new on the show this week. We are going to let our guest ask us any question on their mind, and we have to. Answer it. This is the hot seat. Brought to you by Secret Aardvark Hot Sauce. So. All right. This is your chance. Now we've peppered you with so many questions to ask us. Any question on your mind? [00:25:02][34.2]

  Emily Nussbaum: [00:25:03] So the question is, you are desperate to get on to a reality show. What do you do in terms of auditioning or presenting yourself to the producers in order to convince them that you're the kind of person who would be a breakout character? They have to cast you. [00:25:17][14.0]

  Luke Burbank: [00:25:18] I would argue with every single person I encountered at the casting so that I would be identified as the drama, you know, as the Johnny drama, as the puck from the Real World, as the whomever, pick your heel. But like I would it would start with the person I was checking in with and then it would go to the casting director and then be the other audition. Or I would just be a nightmare and they would be like, All right, well, we need someone to stir that. That's our dude. [00:25:46][27.9]

  Elena Passarello: [00:25:48] That's pretty good. Thank you. I think I'm imagining a reality show where you would have to be interviewed at some point and they would be filmed like American Idol or something like that. And I would just without bringing any attention to it, I would just answer all the questions or sing my song while I shaved my head completely bald. Wow. Right. [00:26:05][17.4]

  Luke Burbank: [00:26:06] I mean, that's a limited time offer. Yeah. You only get to play that card once, but what a memory. All right. Emily Nussbaum, thank you so much for putting us on the hot seat. That was Emily Nussbaum talking about her book Cue the Sun: The Invention of Reality TV. It is available right now and is a must read. If, like me, you watch too much reality TV, probably. This is Live Wire. Of course, each week we like to ask our Live Wire audience a question inspired by the topic of Emily Nussbaum's book, Cue The Sun: The Invention of Reality TV. We asked the listeners a related question. Alena What did we ask folks? [00:26:52][46.4]

  Elena Passarello: [00:26:53] We asked what reality show doesn't exist, but you wish that it did. [00:26:58][5.0]

  Luke Burbank: [00:26:59] Okay. This is a great topic, a great question. And we're trying something new here on Live Wire this week. We actually went out and we had our editor, Melanie Savchenko, ask attendees of the Live Wire live show at the Alberta Rose Theatre this question. And we have some of those answers. And I want to play them for you right now, starting with Charles. This is the reality TV show that Charles says he would like to see that does not currently exist. [Charles: "Honestly, I think the best reality TV show that doesn't exist is drunk public defenders after work".] That makes me think that Charles is a public defender who sometimes gets drunk after work with his colleagues and while he's in that moment, thinks this could be a show. [00:27:51][51.1]

  Elena Passarello: [00:27:51] It sounds more to me like a scripted show that's like an adaptation of Friends. You know how in friends they would go drink coffee– Yeah, it would just be like public defender watering hole. [00:28:03][11.9]

  Luke Burbank: [00:28:04] Yeah. Like Cheers meets Friends meets Boston Legal. [00:28:06][2.8]

  Elena Passarello: [00:28:07] Right. [00:28:07][0.0]

  Luke Burbank: [00:28:09] I would watch that show, by the way. Yeah, absolutely. Watch that show. [00:28:12][2.6]

  Elena Passarello: [00:28:12] Yeah, we'll get it. We'll get you a development deal for that one. [00:28:14][1.9]

  Luke Burbank: [00:28:14] All right. Here is a Marian's response. An actual audience member at our recent live show in Portland of a reality TV show that doesn't exist, but maybe should. [Marian: "Academics on motorbikes. And I mean, it's it's it's a reality show. I guess they're set somewhere on their motorbikes to do a big trip. Put a bunch of academics who don't know what they're doing. I'm fine."] [00:28:23][8.7]

  Luke Burbank: [00:28:37] Elena, you are an academic. What do you make of that? [00:28:38][1.8]

  Elena Passarello: [00:28:39] I don't know. I'm barely an academic because I teach creative writing. But one of my colleagues and he's a big fan of the show, he got on a motorbike for his academic sabbatical and drove it all the way down to like the tip of South America. But that doesn't necessarily sound like the the vision here of this show. This would be somebody like like a professor of sociology who can't ride a bicycle. [00:28:59][20.9]

  Luke Burbank: [00:29:01] Like, yeah, the implication seems to be that the academic would be unsteady on the motorcycle and being going on a mission that was hard to remember. That Japanese show that got really popular were people would send their children to the grocery store. Yeah, I feel like this is that. But with academics on a Harley. [00:29:16][15.7]

  Elena Passarello: [00:29:17] I mean honestly, sending a certain brand of academic to the grocery store on their own would also be pretty good TV. [00:29:24][7.4]

  Luke Burbank: [00:29:25] You get to say it because you live in academia, however. [00:29:28][3.1]

  Elena Passarello: [00:29:29] Right. [00:29:29][0.0]

  Luke Burbank: [00:29:31] One last one here from Mark. This is a reality television show that Mark, who came to a recent live show, wishes existed. [Mark: "So a reality TV show where it's just like videos of that, like the doggie day care and then voiceovers by people saying what the dogs are thinking."] [00:29:38][6.5]

  Elena Passarello: [00:29:51] Yeah. Ten out of ten. [00:29:52][1.0]

  Luke Burbank: [00:29:52] I mean I would say if that. Yeah. No notes. And if that doesn't exist, it really should. And Mark, I can't believe you gave that away to the Live Wire listeners. That's $1 billion idea. [00:30:02][10.6]

  Elena Passarello: [00:30:03] You get people like Jenny Slate or Nick Offerman or Snoop Dogg to do the voiceovers. That's gold. That's total gold. I just hope those dogs don't turn into divas once they become reality TV stars. [00:30:16][12.5]

  Luke Burbank: [00:30:16] They have a writer. There's like, no, you know, green M&Ms. [00:30:19][3.0]

  Elena Passarello: [00:30:20] They get extensions. Plastic surgery. [00:30:21][1.5]

  Luke Burbank: [00:30:22] Yes, that's right. Leave that to the Housewives, Fido. All right. Thank you to everyone who was brave and stepped up to the microphone for our audience question. A lot was going on at the Alberta Rose Theatre. Let me tell you, recently when those questions were being answered, because we also had a very special guest with us, a group of folks who are nothing short of legendary. That is a word that gets kind of overused, but in this case, it's very much deserved. They were founded in Portland in 1994 and they are now entering their 30th year being together. They've sold over 3 million albums. They've played some of the biggest stages in the world, including the Hollywood Bowl, the Kennedy Center, the Sydney Opera House. And now they can add the Alberta Rose Theatre in Portland, Oregon, to that list because they were nice enough to stop by Live Wire and talk about their incredible career as a band. This is Pink Martini on Live Wire. Take a listen. Thomas Lauderdale, China Forbes Thank you so much for being on, Live Wire. [China: Thank you.] I've been following you all on Instagram and your travels around the world and the country and all the fun stuff that you've been doing. Congratulations on 30 years, by the way. That's phenomenal. Maybe this is a well-known story, Thomas, about the origin of Pink Martini, but it was news to me. Is it true that you started this project because you felt like the music at political fundraisers was dull? [00:31:57][95.2]

  Thomas Lauderdale (Pink Martini): [00:31:59] Sort of. Yeah. Yes. In 1994, I had just moved back from college. I went to college together and I moved back to Portland thinking that I was going to go into politics. And so I was working in various political campaigns. And in 1994, there was a very nasty attempt to amend the Oregon Constitution to declare homosexuality illegal in the state of Oregon. It was a group called the Oregon Citizens Alliance. And so I was working on the campaign in opposition to this. I had just seen Pee-Wee Herman Christmas special. Yeah. And in that Christmas special, you have every guest star imaginable in 45 minutes. Grace Jones. Judge, I got bored. Dinah Shore, Oprah Winfrey. Whoopi Goldberg. Magic Johnson. Little Richard. Cher. Charro. K.D. lang. That Voodoo Cello. Joan Rivers. Frankie Avalon. And the Del Rubio. Triplets. Three girls, three Guitar three. Three girls. Three guitars. They literally were triplets. There were somewhere between 70 and 80 years old. They lived in a triple wide mobile home in San Pedro, California, and they wore matching miniskirts, booties. They had huge hair. They were super Catholic, yet pro-gay and and they played guitar and they would sing covers of covers of Walk Like an Egyptian. [00:33:10][70.6]

  Luke Burbank: [00:33:11] By the Bangles. [00:33:11][0.2]

  Thomas Lauderdale (Pink Martini): [00:33:12] And Whip it by Devo. And so I brought them to town to do a series of concerts for a whole week in nursing homes, hospitals, retirement homes and Rotary meetings. And at the end of their set, they would very sweetly say, Please vote no and measure 13 at the end of the week. We had a community wide concert at Silva, 21, and Satan's Pilgrims opened. But I also wanted another opening act, so I threw in a cocktail dress, Betsey Johnson cocktail dress. And. And I started Pink Martini. That's how it started. So if it wasn't for, you know, the Oregon Citizens Alliance, the Measure 13 campaign and Pee Herman Christmas special, this band would not have existed. So. So we kind of became a we became a house band for political fundraising. So we did benefits for affordable housing, the library work and public broadcasting, cleaning up the Willamette River. Things like that. [00:34:13][60.8]

  Luke Burbank: [00:34:13] Yeah. And then China, you. You and Thomas knew each other from school. I'll just say, at Harvard, you're trying to be coy. I appreciate that. I went to the University of Washington. No one's coy about that. Okay, so you guys you guys met in college, and then I'm curious, what did you think you were getting into? What were you signing up for with Thomas in this project? [00:34:33][20.0]

  China Forbes (Pink Martini): [00:34:34] I had no idea what I was signing up for, but we had worked together in college on musical Theatre and musical collaborations. And Thomas was, you know, the Julie McCoy Cruise director of our dorm. So he threw all the parties. So I knew I was getting into something fun. But. [00:34:52][18.6]

  Thomas Lauderdale (Pink Martini): [00:34:53] But you barely knew who work. [00:34:54][0.9]

  China Forbes (Pink Martini): [00:34:54] I didn't really know where Portland was. Yeah. [00:34:56][1.8]

  Thomas Lauderdale (Pink Martini): [00:34:57] She was living in New York City. She's very much East Coast person. [00:35:00][2.9]

  China Forbes (Pink Martini): [00:35:00] Yeah. And but he called me. He was So it was an emergency because he. He needed a singer for these very big shows the band was doing. It was Moda Center opening or it's the Rose quarter at the time and a wedding and. Right. Yes. Two Weddings and Big Bodies, Pan Club Night. And so all of this stuff. And so he he persuaded me by by offering me a lot of cash that he didn't have. And then he sent me a Fedex with the music and a cassette tape from one of their shows so I could learn the songs on the plane. Wow. And I came here and did all of that. [00:35:41][41.4]

  Luke Burbank: [00:35:48] What were the aspirations? I mean, you know, did either of you imagine this is something that could go on for 30 years, even as it was initially a success? [00:35:55][7.0]

  China Forbes (Pink Martini): [00:35:56] No, no. I mean, not at all. Not at all. When we started recording our first album, I thought, this is premature. Why are we recording an album? We just barely started playing. But Thomas had this vision for the album and singing in different languages, and it just was. He was ahead of all the curves and. [00:36:15][19.4]

  Thomas Lauderdale (Pink Martini): [00:36:18] I just wanted to create music that I wanted to hear myself. But it's, you know, we're going the opposite direction of pop culture, really. It's sort of old fashioned. [00:36:25][7.6]

  Luke Burbank: [00:36:27] But you released your first album. You released it on your own label, Heintz, which was named for your dog. Yes, I read. Yep. Great dog name, by the way. Did was that because you were you were aware that you wanted to have all the rights to this and be able to do? Or was it because there was a lack of interest? [00:36:44][16.3]

  Thomas Lauderdale (Pink Martini): [00:36:44] Well, I mean, nobody would have, you know, a record label would have. [00:36:48][3.9]

  Luke Burbank: [00:36:48] Ever, like signed you. [00:36:49][1.0]

  Thomas Lauderdale (Pink Martini): [00:36:49] So at that moment, not at all. But I also thought that I would just wanted to remain in charge of everything. It was the difference between making like $0.25 a record versus $6. And this is the band members shared to the profits of that. It made a whole much bunch of sense to to to do things that way. Strangely, not surprisingly, like various labels called us sort of after the release of the first album. Right. We met with a bunch of people and they all sort of said the same thing. You know, you're the artist is what? I support your work. And I just said the word company that I thought was interesting was Mammoth Records for us who had released Squirrel Nut Zippers, and they were really the hot band. And and I really liked it because he didn't talk about sort of record stuff. He talked about art and other things. And I remember saying to him, I just don't want to wake up one day and be owned by Disney. And in fact, two years later, Disney bought Mammoth Records. [00:37:47][58.1]

  Luke Burbank: [00:37:48] Wow. [00:37:48][0.0]

  Thomas Lauderdale (Pink Martini): [00:37:49] So, you know, it's everybody. The band has been able to buy a house. We're all, you know, back there. And it was houses were much cheaper than it is or it was really podunk. It it didn't care. It was sort of like the calling card was like Guzman's hands and his films and the kind of people that moved here in to Portland. You know, it was certainly the cheapest city on the West Coast by far. You know, you've got San Francisco, which is too beautiful Seattle, which is trying so hard to be cosmopolitan. And then Los Angeles is only good if you don't want anything. [00:38:20][30.8]

  Luke Burbank: [00:38:21] And they've just been canceled from three cities. And then we're still strong here. [00:38:26][5.0]

  Thomas Lauderdale (Pink Martini): [00:38:26] And when you have little Podunk Portland that, you know, we had strip clubs and that's you know yeah. [00:38:31][5.5]

  Luke Burbank: [00:38:32] Vegan strip clubs with that. I mean that's the that's when, you know, you're in a special place. [00:38:35][3.7]

  Thomas Lauderdale (Pink Martini): [00:38:36] It was there was such a collaborative spirit in the 90s and because things were so cheap you could be very creative. [00:38:43][6.5]

  Luke Burbank: [00:38:44] I was reading an interview with you, China, and I've never seen this word used this way, but it said like despite the fact that you're monolingual, you sing in all these other languages when you sing like they were like, it's just English for the speaking, but it's everything else for the singing. And I know you get asked about this a lot, but I'm just curious what that process is like for you, or do you just have a natural ability to sing in other languages and really be comfortable in other languages? [00:39:08][24.0]

  China Forbes (Pink Martini): [00:39:09] I think it's a combination of some ability and some, like brazenness. I, I studied French and Italian, so I don't speak fluently, but I, I know how to, you know, pronounce those languages. And I think just being a musician and having an ear for music, it helps with the ear for all the different nuances of different accents in different languages. So, yes. [00:39:32][23.4]

  Luke Burbank: [00:39:32] Is there a particular language that's especially challenging for you? Are you like, Can we not do this one? Maybe in that? Yes. [00:39:38][5.8]

  China Forbes (Pink Martini): [00:39:40] Yes. I would say Thai and Arabic have sounds that I can't really make correctly. It just isn't possible because I didn't, you know, form those sounds as a child. So I do my best to approximate them and I do have to sing in them quite frequently. Wow. [00:40:00][20.9]

  Luke Burbank: [00:40:01] We're talking to Thomas Lauderdale and China forbes from Pink Martini here on Live Wire this week they're celebrating 30 years as a musical collaboration. I was watching this performance that you did with Googoosh in Paris. What I enjoyed about it, Thomas, and what I enjoy about a lot of your shows is that it's both musical and also you give a lot of information, a lot of like music history or the history of the performers or the song. I'm wondering, is that a big part of your preparation? Do you see yourself as sort of bandleader, musician and musicologist in a way every day? [00:40:35][33.7]

  Thomas Lauderdale (Pink Martini): [00:40:36] Yes. [00:40:36][0.0]

  China Forbes (Pink Martini): [00:40:38] You're a musical archeologist. [00:40:39][0.9]

  Thomas Lauderdale (Pink Martini): [00:40:40] I mean, I love. We've been very lucky to be able to collaborate with people like Googoosh. We're working on a whole album with her right now. Googoosh is maybe the biggest singer of all time from from Iran. And she grew up on Iranian television in the 50s, 60s and 70s and is sort of the equivalent of Taylor, I guess you could be the Taylor Swift of her day in Iran and the little lady, 79 with the revolution. She didn't leave. She stayed. But because she's a woman, she can't sing. So nobody really. She was under house arrest and nobody heard from her for 21 years that in 2000 she somehow left the country where to? Canada had a huge cut back. Now lives in Los Angeles. And she is sort of like, you know, the way that Edith Piaf is the voice of France or Britain, I say is the voice of Romania. Googoosh is the voice of Iran. It's so we're working on an album, which is her early songs that she hasn't seen since the 60s. [00:41:39][58.7]

  Elena Passarello: [00:41:39] Amazing. Wow. [00:41:40][1.3]

  Luke Burbank: [00:41:41] Yeah. And you do you collaborate with so many different amazing musicians and people. I'm wondering, how do you how do you find them? How do you because it's a it's a sort of a merry band of folks. [00:41:53][11.4]

  Thomas Lauderdale (Pink Martini): [00:41:53] In the phone book. [00:41:54][0.6]

  Luke Burbank: [00:41:54] Really? [00:41:54][0.0]

  China Forbes (Pink Martini): [00:41:55] He also finds them when he's looking for cigarettes in Paris and they get out of a taxi, which is how he found Ari Salvador, who's like the Nat King Cole of France. And we covered one of his songs. And Thomas thought, I would love to collaborate with him. How do I find him? And we were standing on a street corner in Paris having gone looking for Thomas' cigarettes that are clove cigarettes and hard to find and a taxi. We hailed a taxi and it stopped. And out came Ari Salvador. And the next thing you know, he's on stage at the Hollywood Bowl with us. [00:42:28][32.9]

  Luke Burbank: [00:42:30] That is amazing. [00:42:31][0.5]

  Thomas Lauderdale (Pink Martini): [00:42:32] It pays. It pays to smoke everybody. [00:42:34][2.5]

  Luke Burbank: [00:42:36] You heard it here on Live Wire. This is Live Wire. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarello. You are listening to a conversation we recorded with Thomas Lauderdale and China Forbes of Pink Martini. Now we've got to take a very quick break, but don't go anywhere. When we come back, Thomas, China and the rest of Pink Martini will play us a tune. So don't go anywhere. Welcome back to Live Wire from PRX. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarello. All right. Before we get back to Pink Martini, just a quick preview of what we're doing on the show. Next week. We're going to be chatting with award winning journalist Bianca Bosker about her foray into the world of high art. Also, we're going to hear some music from pianist, vocalist and all around fascinating person, Brittany Davis. That is coming up on the show next week as far as this week goes. Well, it's time for a little station location, identification, examination. This is where we quiz our esteemed announcer, Elena Passarello, one time, second place Jeopardy finisher, about a place in the U.S. where Live Wire is on the radio. And you all get to play along at home. Elena, are you ready to play? [00:45:00][143.2]

  Elena Passarello: [00:45:00] Yeah. Let's do it. [00:45:01][0.8]

  Luke Burbank: [00:45:02] Okay. What's your Louis L'Amour awareness? [00:45:05][3.0]

  Elena Passarello: [00:45:06] I know that Louis L'Amour and I have the same birthday, March 22nd. [00:45:11][4.1]

  Luke Burbank: [00:45:12] Some awareness. [00:45:12][0.4]

  Elena Passarello: [00:45:13] My stepfather used to read his novels, and I think they're all set in the West. [00:45:17][3.9]

  Luke Burbank: [00:45:18] Okay, good. You're on the right side of the Mississippi for this. This city where Live Wire is on the radio is a key location in the Louis L'Amour novel Flint, but it's referred to by its historic name, which is Los Alamitos. [00:45:29][11.2]

  Elena Passarello: [00:45:32] That sounds Southwestern. [00:45:32][0.5]

  Luke Burbank: [00:45:34] Yes. Good. You're in the right region. How about this? Throughout history, this place has been known for all sorts of things railroad, logging, carrots, a uranium mining boom. But now it is maybe best known by tourists for its natural beauty. [00:45:48][14.5]

  Elena Passarello: [00:45:49] Is it Taos, New Mexico? [00:45:50][0.8]

  Luke Burbank: [00:45:51] It is in New Mexico. And it's also monosyllabic. First name. Last name of a president whose first name was Ulysses Grant. Grant's New Mexico. Where we're on KIDSFM. You got it. I don't know how you get this. I'm not giving it to you. Shout out to everyone tuning in on KIDSFM. All right, let's get to the music. Now, as you remember, we were chatting with Thomas Lauderdale and China Forbes from Pink Martini just a minute ago and about how they basically started this musical project that's just been incredibly successful, kind of as a result of a Pee-Wee Herman Christmas special. But now they're playing like the Hollywood Bowl and all these other amazing places, including the Alberta Rose Theatre. Well, that is where they joined us. So let's get back to that now and let's hear a song. Okay. This is Pink Martini performing live on Live Wire here from Portland, Oregon. [00:46:50][58.9]

  Thomas Lauderdale (Pink Martini): [00:46:54] So this is a song that we wrote with Albert Clemente and Johnny Danielle, Prince of New York City. And we you know, we decided to write it in Italian with a note and. Napoli Part of the lyrics translate to one night in Naples with the moon of the sea. I met an angel who could no longer fly, but even without wings. He took me to the sky. [00:47:11][17.3]

  [Pink Martini performs music]

  Luke Burbank: [00:51:21] That was pink martini right here on Live Wire. They will be touring the U.S. and the world. So go to their website to find out when they will be in a city near you. That's going to do it for this week's episode of Live Wire. A huge thanks to our guests, Emily Nussbaum and Pink Martini. [00:51:42][21.0]

  Elena Passarello: [00:51:43] Laura Hadden is our executive producer. Heather de Michele is our executive director and our producer and editor is Melanie Savchenko. Evan Hoffer is our technical director. Leona Kinderman is our assistant technical director and our house sound Is by D Neil Blake. Ashley Park is our production fellow and Becky Phillips and Andrea Castro Martinez are our interns. Our house band is Sam Pinkerton, Ethan Fox, Tucker Al Alves and A Walker Spring, who also composes our music. This episode was mixed by Evan Hoffer. Special thanks this episode to William Tennant and Chris Bright. [00:52:14][30.9]

  Luke Burbank: [00:52:15] Additional funding provided by the James F and Marian L Miller Foundation. Live Wire was created by Robin Tenenbaum and Kate Sokoloff this week. We'd like to thank members Jo Burdick of Portland, Oregon, and Paul Ruffalo of Oregon City, Oregon. For more information about our show or how you can listen to our podcast visit LiveWireradio.org. I'm Luke Burbank for Elena Passarello and the whole Live Wire crew. Thank you for listening. And we will see you next week. [00:52:41][26.5]

  PRX