Episode 649
Annie Rauwerda, Ivan McClellan, and Sami Braman
Annie Rauwerda, founder of the social media account Depths of Wikipedia, shares some more obscure entries from the website, including "The Kentucky Meat Shower;" photojournalist Ivan McClellan discusses his new book Eight Seconds, an exploration of Black rodeo culture in America; and fiddler Sami Braman plays the title track off her latest album Riveter. Plus, host Luke Burbank and announcer Elena Passarello reveal what Wikipedia rabbit holes our listeners are falling down.
Ivan McClellan
Photojournalist and Designer
Ivan McClellan is a photojournalist and designer whose work has been featured in ESPN: The Undefeated, GQ, Atmos, Elle, W Magazine, The New York Times, and Juxtapoz and displayed in museums and galleries across the country including, Buffalo Bill Center of the West, Booth Museum, and Griffin Museum of Photography. His current project, Eight Seconds, is an exploration of Black cowboy culture around America, in which he reveals the connection between Black folks, the land, and animals creating a rich narrative, disrupting myths and stereotypes about contemporary Cowboys. His personal connections to the subjects in his photography offer a glimpse into a reality seldom presented by popular media. Website • Instagram
Sami Braman
Folk Artist
Traditional roots wunderkind Sami Braman has been playing fiddle since age six. Co-founder of longtime Pacific Northwest string band The Onlies and a touring/session player for Willie Watson (of Old Crow Medicine Show), she's performed at prestigious festivals nationwide, winning accolades including first place at Clifftop's Traditional Band Contest. A Whitman College music graduate, she is now based in Nashville, where she pursues music full-time, teaching and performing across the country. Her debut solo album, Riveter, features ten original fiddle tunes that draw from diverse traditions, from Appalachia to Norway, demonstrating Sami's virtuosic playing and pushing the boundaries of traditionally inspired folk music. Website • Instagram
Show Notes
Station Location Identification Examination (SLIE)
This week’s station shoutout goes to WMEW-91.3 Main Public of Waterville, ME.
Best News
Elena’s story: “Tiny Sprouts Spotted at the Stump of the Fallen Sycamore Gap Tree”
Luke’s story: “Tortoise found 1.5 miles from home in SE Portland, 2 days after escape”
Ivan McClellan
Ivan’s new book: Eight Seconds
Ivan talks about his experience at the Roy LeBlanc Invitational Rodeo in Okmulgee, OK.
Charles Perry’s The Black Cowboy Documentary is mentioned.
Ivan’s Instagram account, @eightsecs, was the initial phase of the project that culminated in his book.
The first black rodeo in the Pacific Northwest, 8 Seconds Juneteenth Rodeo, was founded by Ivan.
Live Wire Listener Question
Tell us about your most recent Wikipedia deep-dive.
Annie Rauwerda
Annie is the creator of the Instagram account “Depths of Wikipedia.”
Mentioned Wikipedia articles:
The Wikipedia page for “The Pizza Meter” has since been taken down.
Sami Braman
Plays the title track from her new album, Riveter.
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Luke Burbank: This episode of Live Wire was originally recorded in August of 2024. We hope you enjoy it. Now let's get to the show. Hey, Elena.
Elena Passarello: Hey, Luke. How's it going?
Luke Burbank: It's going great. Hey, are you ready to play a little "Station Location Identification Examination"?
Elena Passarello: Absolutely.
Luke Burbank: This is where I quiz Elena on a place in the country where Live Wire is on the radio. She's got to guess where I am talking about. This city is home to something called the Two Cent Bridge, which was built in 1901 as a privately owned toll bridge. Can you guess how much the two cent bridge charged Elena for toll?
Elena Passarello: It better be two cents.
Luke Burbank: It was exactly two cents. And then in 1981, they abolished the toll altogether. This is in the Northeast.
Elena Passarello: Oh yeah. Okay. Okay, good. Yeah. I worried that maybe there might be a bunch of places with two cent bridges, but I know Colby College in Maine. There's a two cent bridge. Right by there is the town. Colby, Maine.
Luke Burbank: Passarello. You've done it again because Colby College is in Waterville, Maine, home of the U.S. bridge. The place we're talking about, the place where people tune in on WMEW on Maine public to listen to Live Wire So congratulations. You've you've you've won the game once.
Elena Passarello: Again thanks to the good people of Colby College for putting that factoid in my head.
Luke Burbank: Exactly. All right. Let's get to the show.
Elena Passarello: From PRX. It's Live Wire. This week, the depths of Wikipedia founder Annie Rauwerda.
Annie Rauwerda: Today in the age of AI, when Google results kind of already are deteriorating, sometimes it's the only search result that you get that's written by humans.
Elena Passarello: Photographer Ivan McClellan.
Ivan McClellan: Like my mom, took us to see Tombstone, and there were no black people in that movie at all, like no extras. I don't even think there was a black horse in that movie.
Elena Passarello: With music from Sami Braman and our fabulous house band. I'm your announcer, Elena Passarello and now the host of Live Wire. Luke Burbank.
Luke Burbank: Hey, thank you so much, Elena Passarello. Thanks to everyone tuning in from all over the country, including Waterville, Maine on w m e w. We have a corker of a show for you this week. Of course, we asked the Live Wire listeners a question. The question was, tell us about your most recent Wikipedia deep dive. This is related to any real Where does hilarious social media feed the depths of Wikipedia? We're going to hear those responses coming up in a moment. First, though, we got to kick things off with the best news we heard all week this week. This right here is our little reminder. There's good news happening out there in the world. Elena What is the best news that you heard all week?
Elena Passarello: Okay, It starts with worse news, ends with Best News. Okay, So bear with me. Have you ever heard of Hadrian's Wall?
Luke Burbank: Yes, I have. It's that cool stone wall in, like, England or something.
Elena Passarello: Yeah, it's at the tippity top of England near the Scottish border. It's like 1900 years old. It's a Roman wall. And for several centuries, there was this gap. At this gap in Hadrian's Wall, there was this beautiful sycamore tree that stood right where the wall had kind of fallen down. And it was the source of like multiple Instagram things and calendars. And people got married under the tree, got proposed to under the tree. It was really a community staple. Generations of families would have certain kinds of rituals that they would do near that tree. And last year, Luke, someone chopped it down. Someone just felled the tree.
Luke Burbank: I saw a photo of that. It was so depressing.
Elena Passarello: Yeah. Act of vandalism. The trial is actually set for this fall. So they've. They've apprehended people and have put them on trial. But here's some good news. So everyone's still sort of reeling from this tragedy. And actually, when the tree was felled, scientists immediately took these cuttings from the trees, seeds and genetic material. So even though the tree wouldn't stand anymore, the stump is still there. Its offspring maybe would get a chance to thrive there or somewhere else. But not too long ago, a few weeks ago, there was a park service officer named. And I love this person's name. Gary Pickles. Gary Pickles was walking past the Gap in Hadrian's Wall and he bent down and he saw these little sycamore shoots popping up right next to the trunk. And now I told you that they took those cuttings. Those haven't been transplanted at all. Those are these were actually offspring of the actual tree, the stump and roots of which still stand. So the tree is regenerating itself. And so he took a bunch of pictures and then tried not to draw too much attention to it because not only did they not want too many tourists to be aware of this or to maybe trample it or whatever. They're also very worried about deer. So they put these barricades up around the sycamore gap. And hopefully this is the sign of rebirth, regrowth. And I have to tell you, Gary Pickles, my favorite Northumberland park ranger, this is what he said when he saw the shoots, according to The New York Times. You're back, are you? It's just so it's English.
Luke Burbank: To be a mosquito flying past Gary Pickles as he uttered that. Standing by Hadrian's Wall. I love that. Yeah, that was such a bummer when that tree came down. It's nice to know that it's it's on its way back, however long that takes. Speaking of things that take kind of a long time. My best news Elena this week comes from southeast Portland, an area that we know well. And a tortoise named Bowser, which I'm just going to tell you a great name for a tortoise. I'm assuming it's related to Mario Brothers, right? Bowser. Bowser is a nine year old tortoise. And Bowser, in a very untoward US like way, escaped from his home and was gone for two days. And Bowser's family, including Jasmine Sprague, were very bummed about Bowser disappearing. They love Bowser. They say it in their family. They loved to joke that their great grandkids will hang out with Bowser because Bowser's like going to live to be like 125 or something. So Bowser goes M.I.A. And they're looking everywhere. They can't find Bowser. Bowser gets a mile and a half away and is like walking down the Springwater corridor, which if you're from Portland, you know what that is? And these police officers are out with water because it's been very hot. And they were out trying to, you know, give people water and just check on everyone, make sure they're okay. They look over. They see a tortoise strolling down the path. You know, it's Bowser. And so they take Bowser to an animal shelter and the animal shelter got in touch with Jasmine Sprague and said, We might have your tortoise here. And. And so they were reunited with Bowser. By the way, this story was sent in by listener Julie in Portland. We always love to get best news suggestions from the listeners. This was the part that really, really shocked me. This was Bowser's Third Escape Lake. We may need to invest in some new security measures. Bowser has been found chasing chickens.
Elena Passarello: He's a Mario Brothers character. He's been hopping from mushroom to.
Luke Burbank: Mushroom throwing fireballs. He's been punching boxes that have coins in them, like Bowser is apparently. A very active tortoise, but is now safely back at home. Whereabouts are belong? So that is the best news that I heard all week coming right out of Portland, Oregon. All right. Let's bring our first guest out. He is a photojournalist and designer whose work has been featured in ESPN, GQ and The New York Times. His new book is Eight Seconds, and it explores black cowboy culture in America through photographs. And this is a culture that has been around for a long time. In fact, it predates Beyonce making it cool with her latest album, if you can believe that. Also, this guy is the rodeo boss, right? Which is the real term of the 80s Juneteenth Rodeo. That happens in Portland, Oregon. Take a listen. To Ivan McClellan. We recorded this at the Patricia Reser Center for the Arts in Beaverton, Oregon. Ivan, welcome to the show.
Ivan McClellan: Yeah, thanks for having me on here.
Luke Burbank: This book is phenomenal. I mean, just the photography and it is incredible, the subjects, the subject matter, which I think a lot of people maybe aren't as aware of. I'm curious. Growing up, what was your sense of the existence of black cowboy culture?
Ivan McClellan: You know, I grew up in Kansas City, Kansas. There were black cowboys around, but I didn't really think of them as cowboys because, like, my mom took us to see Tombstone and there were no black people in that movie at all, like no extras. I don't even think there was a black horse in that movie. It is pristine, white. And and so, like, watching that and The Beverly Hillbillies and Bonanza reruns and Gunsmoke and stuff like that. I thought, Well, Mr. Will's down the street, has cows, but he's not a cowboy because that's what white guys do. We would we would go to church on Sundays and we would stop by a place called Benjamin Ranch and we would ride horses in our church clothes.
Luke Burbank: Every surprised that you were allowed to do that?
Ivan McClellan: Yeah, my grandma would let us do it every once in a while. We couldn't do it every Sunday. It was something that I enjoyed. Whenever we'd have, like the church picnic, they would have pigs and cows. So we were like country and we kind of thought of our upbringing like that. But but cowboy and really wasn't wasn't anything that I recognized or identified with.
Luke Burbank: Because the pop culture of it was so dominantly white.
Ivan McClellan: Yeah, there was, you know, I didn't see any, any black country singers. I didn't see, you know, we would see like you would see a black man in a cowboy hat. But that was like in Blazing Saddles. Sheriff Mart or Pee wee's Playhouse.
Elena Passarello: Cowboy Curtis.
Ivan McClellan: Cowboy Curtis. Yeah, it was on there. And it was just sort of like a joke. Like, what if a black guy was a cowboy? Wouldn't that be funny? Was was was sort of the thinking that I had. But I didn't know anything about the history and really didn't didn't identify the people around me like that.
Luke Burbank: How did you then end up at the Roy LeBlanc Invitational?
Ivan McClellan: So I left Kansas City, Kansas. I moved to New York City, started a design career, ended up getting a job out in Portland in 2011 at the companies that I worked for, there would be like 200 people there and I'd be the only black person. So I felt really uncomfortable. I had imposter syndrome and was just sort of wearing chinos and nobody knew who Luther Vandross was. And it was just like sort of like like awkward. So I was at a party one day and this filmmaker came up to me and I turned around. He's a black guy, a tall black guy, salt and pepper afro. His name's Charles Perry. I asked him what he was working on and he said, I'm working on a movie about black cowboys. I said, like a Western. He said, No, a documentary. And I think I laughed at him because I was like, okay, where did you find these black cowboys at to do your documentary? And he was like, Well, come with me to Okmulgee, Oklahoma, this summer. There's a black rodeo down there. I want you to come down and take pictures and see it for yourself. And and I went. It was 105 degrees down there. It was 100% humidity. There were grasshoppers jumping on my clothes. I was wearing I was wearing my work chinos and I was wearing wingtips with no socks. And there were like chiggers by my ankles. It was it was it was pretty rough. But there were thousands of black cowboys and thousands of them. And they and they were doing the Cupid shuffle in their boots and they were riding horses in Jordans with no shirt and chains. And, you know, women were right in the barrels with their braids blowing behind them and their acrylic nails clutch in the reins. And it was just like this beautiful mixture of Western culture with black culture that I was familiar with.
Luke Burbank: This is Live Wire from PRX. We were talking to photojournalist Ivan McClellan about his new book, Eight Seconds, which captures black rodeo culture across America. When we return, Ivan is going to tell us how he learned to dress the part of being a cowboy, which included not wearing his cowboy hat backwards, which was an issue initially for him. So more with Ivan in just a moment here on Live Wire. Welcome back to Live Wire. I'm your host, Luke Burbank, here with Elena Passarello. We are listening to a conversation we recorded with Ivan McClellan talking about his book of photographs called Eight Seconds. It documents black rodeo culture. Let's pick that conversation up. Now, we recorded this at the Patricia Research Center of the Arts in Beaverton, Oregon. When did you start to think, okay, this actually should be a book?
Ivan McClellan: You know, it was it was years. I mean, this was 2015 that I went to my first rodeo and I kept going back year after year just to be immersed in the culture. And because I loved it, I loved the fashion. I loved the smoked turkey legs. I loved all of it. Just being there was like a vacation for me. So I would I would I ended up going to like ten, ten of these rodeos a year around the country. Wow. And really didn't do anything with the photos for a long time. My wife eventually was like, Hey, this is kind of expensive. What are you doing? What's the what's the move? And I started an Instagram account and started posting the photos on there. And people were really receptive. A lot of people were like, I didn't know anything about this either. Black folks and white folks like. So that started moving. It was really during the pandemic that I was like, I think I've got something here. Portland was shut down. Everybody was double masked when they were like, running. It was like, yeah, it was like the apocalypse here. Oklahoma Nope. The pandemic didn't happen there for some reason. Like it was, there was completely open. People were eating at Chili's, like, and they were having like these rodeos with people on top of each other. So I was like taking pandemic vacations down to Oklahoma and really, really got into the work during that period and it started to get it started to develop into a book around.
Luke Burbank: Then there's a foreword in this book that's written by The Bull rider Happens to be a black man, Charlie Samson. And it's kind of charming because he's, you know, complimenting you and how he felt really connected to you when he met you, but also that you did not know your way around a horse. Yeah. He was calling you out for being, you know, a bit of a tenderfoot or whatever.
Ivan McClellan: In my own book. Yeah.
Luke Burbank: Yeah, right. And you included him. I wonder what that was like for you to. To immerse yourself in this culture where there's a real value on knowing how to ride a horse, knowing your way around the scene, and you must have not known your way around the scene at all when you start it was that intimidating?
Ivan McClellan: Yeah, absolutely. Like, I mean, the first thing you do is when you meet someone as you shake their hand and. And, you know, I met a guy named Robert Kraft, and he had hands like 12 grit sandpaper. And my hands are like dragonfly wings because I work in tech and design and, you know, it's just like the minute that you meet someone, they know that you're not you're not of the culture. But that's okay. That's completely fine because they're just as curious about me as I am about them. And they want to know why I'm there and why I'm interested in it.
Luke Burbank: When did you add the cowboy hat? To fit?
Ivan McClellan: So I was dressing like this, shoot in these rodeos, and somebody came up to me and they were like, You can't be up on the bucking chutes. You can't be hanging out on fences dressed like that. You got to dress the part if you're going to be here, And so the next rodeo, I came back, I was wearing jeans and a belt and boots and a hat. The first time I wore my hat, I had it on backwards. And somebody it's really difficult. I mean, like, you know.
Luke Burbank: Honestly, like, yeah, that's backwards. That looks exactly the same.
Ivan McClellan: But somebody came up to me and was like, Hey, that look better if you wore it the other way. And I was like, man.
Luke Burbank: We're talking to Ivan McClellan about his new book, Eight Seconds Black Rodeo Culture. The photos in this book are just so spectacular. But the cover photo you were telling me backstage, it looks the way that it does because of the particular camera that you're using to take these pictures, which then, when you explain it to me, sounded like you're making your life intentionally way harder.
Ivan McClellan: Yeah, Yeah. I shoot with a with a medium format camera, which anybody that does photography knows that that is the exact wrong camera to shoot action with. But when you get a photo right, you get it really right. It's really beautiful. Every other photographer that's at the rodeo has got a long lens and a really fast cannon or a Nikon, and they see me with a short lens, a 35 millimeter lens in this giant camera. And they're like, What are you doing?
Luke Burbank: Because at its most rapid, you can only take a picture every three seconds.
Ivan McClellan: Something like that. Yeah.
Luke Burbank: And the entire ride is eight seconds if it goes well.
Ivan McClellan: Yeah. So you got two chances to get a photo. Get a photo. Right, but, but, but I evolved into this because a lot of what I shoot is behind the scenes. Yeah, I shoot a lot of portraits. There's a lot of pictures of just people standing with their horse in the book. But then the rodeo happens and I don't really have anything to do. So I would go in the arena and start taking photos with the same camera, and sometimes I would get it right. And it was it was just magical.
Luke Burbank: It feels like you have gone from being somebody that wasn't particularly familiar with this world to being very, very kind of enmeshed in it to the degree that you're now the rodeo boss for. This Juneteenth rodeo that's happening in Portland. What does that actually involve you doing?
Ivan McClellan: I own the rodeo. I'm the I'm the founder and CEO of the 80s Juneteenth Rodeo. It's the first black rodeo in the Pacific Northwest. Thank you. Yeah. So, you know, there's there's there's a lot of pride in the community here. It's a gathering of the black community. Everybody's welcome. We're going to celebrate the legacy of black cowboys in the Pacific Northwest. But then we also have a have a heck of a time. I think we're going to play the entire Beyonce album this year.
Elena Passarello: Yeah.
Luke Burbank: Yeah. I was wondering that's widened the message and maybe the group of people that now have some sense. I mean, the album's called Cowboy Carter. Were you welcoming that because it's more attention or were you like, Hey, I was doing this? I was getting bit by insects in a town in Oklahoma years ago. And now, like, you know, it's Beyonce. So everyone's like, cool, black cowboy culture.
Ivan McClellan: Yeah, that's exactly how I am. I'm like Beyonce saying, You stole my thing.
Luke Burbank: No, no, I think.
Ivan McClellan: I think she was riding horses long before I even saw one. But it's nothing but respect and love. The album is incredible. I think. I think it articulates through music what I experienced at that rodeo. It's a mixture of all of these elements of black culture. It's a gumbo and it's just got a cowboy hat on top of it, but it's a little bit of hip hop. It's a little bit of R&B that that's how it felt. There is it's like this isn't so stiff and stuck in one place. It's it's it's a collection of of inspirations.
Luke Burbank: I just have to say, the book is, is incredible. I'm so excited. I'm picking up a copy after the show because it just it portrays a version of life that so many people like me and that look like me maybe haven't considered fully. And it's just a really, really special piece of work.
Ivan McClellan: Yeah. Much appreciate it. It's a real point of pride.
Luke Burbank: Well, congratulations on it and good luck with the rodeo coming up. Ivan McClellan, everyone, right here on Live Wire. That was photographer Ivan McClellan. His book, Eight Seconds, is available now, and it's incredible. Highly recommend. Live Wire is brought to you by Powell's Books, a Portland institution since 1971. Powell's offers a selection of new and used books in stores and online at Powell's.com. This is Live Wire. Of course, each week we like to ask our listeners a question. We are going to be diving into the depths of Wikipedia later in the show. So we asked the listeners, Tell us about your most recent Wikipedia deep dive. Elena has been collecting up those responses. What do you see?
Elena Passarello: And I am learning so much about our audience members and it's that I'm fascinated by their deep dives like this one from Carl, Carl's latest Wikipedia wormhole involved going through fruit names one by one and reading their etymologies. For example, the coconut was named because the first European to see one said it reminded him of a ghost. I don't know what that means.
Luke Burbank: Yeah, I'm trying to untangle that. I guess I'd never really taken a moment to think about the origin of the name Coconut, because that's as good an explanation as any. What's another deep Wikipedia dive someone's been going on?
Elena Passarello: Okay, how about this one from Chelsea? Chelsea says, I was trying to figure out if the movie Long Legs would be too scary for me. So I read the Wikipedia page and decided that it probably was because I'm a wimp. But then Chelsea says, I ended up reading the pages for a whole bunch of other horror movies that I know I'll never see. So at least I understand what people are talking about. And honestly, the Wikipedia was still too much for me.
Luke Burbank: That's a really good idea because I'm also somebody who doesn't really. I don't like scary movies that much. And yeah, I don't know. I'm I was very sheltered as a child. You know, we weren't allowed to watch anything that my parents deemed too, quote unquote, worldly. So I just never developed that kind of strong constitution for scary movies. But I could probably read the Wikipedia page of like Friday the 13th and figure out what's going on. All right. One more deep dive that somebody did in Wikipedia.
Elena Passarello: Okay, so this one's from Elizabeth, who's most recent Wikipedia Deep dive was the North East Interstate Dairy Compact. And that's some kind of a compact. According to Elizabeth, among six New England states agreed to support the farm price of milk at a higher level than federally mandated minimum prices in the region.
Luke Burbank: So they were they were setting their own price for the in the Northeast for their for their dairy products there.
Elena Passarello: Yeah, they were they were they're revaluing I guess, their milk.
Luke Burbank: That is the kind of fact that I cannot be trusted with because once I know it, like this listener, I will just be telling everybody that sort of thing, you know? There's nothing worse than Luke Burbank with a little piece of information that he got on a Wikipedia deep dive because I am not going to shut up about it. Hey, thanks to everyone who sent in a response. Our next guest, speaking of Wikipedia, is a writer, journalist and Internet personality who studied neuroscience in college, which was also when she started something called the Depths of Wikipedia, which was a social media account to highlight the sort of absurd and delightfully weird entries found on Wikipedia, including bootlegging, which was a jargon only spoke in Boonville, California, in the 1800s. The project has now grown to over 1.3 million Instagram followers and spawned a variety show. And soon it will be a book. Here is Annie Rauwerda on stage at Town Hall in Seattle, Washington. On my way. Annie, welcome to Live Wire.
Annie Rauwerda: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
Luke Burbank: So great to have you here. When you started this project. Okay, It was. You were in college still, and. And you just thought, I want to start kind of compiling things that I find interesting from Wikipedia, mostly for your friends.
Annie Rauwerda: Well, Covid hit, and so suddenly I had all this free time and I was reading about Stolen and Missing Moon Rocks or the timeline of the far future. And I thought, This is so fun. Let me collect these tidbits and put them out there. And at first, mostly you're right. It was mostly my friends that followed, but eventually it picked up a bigger audience.
Luke Burbank: Now, I saw that you did something called whiskey racing when you were young.
Annie Rauwerda: I'm definitely not the only one that has done this. But yes, I.
Luke Burbank: Love the audience response. You might be, I don't know, other you, but it does. It doesn't seem like a crowd of whiskey racers. What you never know is unfamiliar. How does Wiki racing work?
Annie Rauwerda: You choose a starting line, which is an article, let's say sexually active hopes, and then you choose a destination, which is an article. Let's say Penelope the platypus. And then you try to get from the starting line to the destination just by clicking those blue hyperlinks. [Elena: Wow.] And we would do it during study hall because it was sneaky enough that it looks like we might be being productive.
Luke Burbank: If they walked by. It would be like Wikipedia is open. So.
Annie Rauwerda: You know, they're getting the gist of something they're probably learning in school. But no.
Luke Burbank: When you were starting out, I'm guessing that you were sort of compiling this stuff. You were just, you know, going through Wikipedia looking for interesting things. Now, because the feed is so popular, people are sending you stuff constantly. I'm curious, what is it that you're looking for? It's not just what a weird piece of information, right? Is there some other essential quality that makes something great for the depths of Wikipedia?
Annie Rauwerda: It's really great when there's an element of related ability in stories. Penelope the platypus who I mentioned earlier, she's a platypus.
Luke Burbank: That we all know her from Sex Popes.
Annie Rauwerda: She no, she's not. Well, you listen. She's the opposite of sexually active. She was the first platypus at the Bronx Zoo to survive for a while. I mean, she was there with her partner, Cecil, and then she did not want to meet with Cecil, and she pretended to be pregnant to eat extra food. And then she disappeared. And I found that there was an aspect of Penelope that was somewhat relatable. I don't know. Yeah, we've all had Cecil's that we're not particularly fond of.
Luke Burbank: That's okay.
Elena Passarello: I often want to eat a lot more than usual and then just disappear. That's February for me.
Luke Burbank: We're talking to an empowered from the depths of Wikipedia. I am one of the 1.3 million people that follow you on Instagram and there are some posts, recent posts that I would love to get a little bit more of an explanation on the pizza meter. What is that?
Annie Rauwerda: Okay, so the pizza meter was an informal measure of if the US is about to have a big military action. Basically there was a Domino's Pizza in Washington, D.C. that knew when serious situation rumors were happening because there were way more pizza orders to the Pentagon.
Luke Burbank: So if Rumsfeld is in there just being like, yes, cheesy bread, send it in, We know that maybe it's something is afoot.
Annie Rauwerda: That's the story. That's what the Domino's Pizza guy said. But then the all the examples are from the 90s because it seems like the US government figured it out and now they probably diversify their takeout orders.
Luke Burbank: They're spreading it out amongst the different this is related but not what is the Kentucky meat shower.
Annie Rauwerda: That was when meat fell from the sky in the 19th century in Kentucky. And there are newspaper reports of it. And so Wikipedia has used those newspaper reports to write the article.
Luke Burbank: And today, is there any theories about where the meat got initially sucked up from before being re deposited?
Annie Rauwerda: There's one theory that it's like vultures barfing.
Luke Burbank: Yes. They have very acidic bars. Cause this is an area of interest for Elaina.
Elena Passarello: I love a barfing vulture.
Luke Burbank: True story. You're actually here in Seattle. Well, to be on our show. But you're also doing some research for this book that you're working on about Wikipedia. You told me backstage that there's somebody in Olympia, Washington area. You want to talk to this person. Why?
Annie Rauwerda: He has made more than 90,000 edits on Wikipedia all doing the same grammar switch. He believes that using comprised of is not ideal for an encyclopedia and that you should use more specific terms like composed of or includes. And so he's done that 90,000 times that.
Luke Burbank: I'm sorry. That was my trick here. Did you say 90,000?
Annie Rauwerda: 90,000. It's actually more than that.
Elena Passarello: How did you find him?
Annie Rauwerda: There was a little bit of press about him in 2015. That's when people started realizing, wait, this guy is actually serious. He's not going to stop. Also, he has a brother that also fixes grammar mistakes but isn't quite as active.
Luke Burbank: Do you happen to know does the brother have a specific mistake that he likes to correct?
Elena Passarello: Yeah. What is his pet peeve comprised of?
Annie Rauwerda: He does, but I care. My first off the top of my head.
Luke Burbank: We're talking to Annie Rauwerda here on Live Wire. We're at town hall in Seattle this week. Annie is the person behind the depths of Wikipedia. I think a lot of people assume that Wikipedia is a total free for all and that anyone can put anything up there. But my impression is that's not exactly how it works. Like, what are the rules? Who can have a Wikipedia page, who can post on Wikipedia?
Annie Rauwerda: I think that in the past 15 years it has really gone from photo free for all to like a well-oiled operation with occasional elements of free for all anyone can edit. But there are some pages, the most important ones, maybe the most controversial ones, where the editing is limited to people with, say, 500 edits. So you have to be a serious person. There are certain powers that are bestowed upon people that have been in the community for a long time. You can be an admin. So there is a hierarchy, there is a lot of respect. And I think that even though there are times where things are wrong on Wikipedia. Earlier today I corrected vandalism that said the Philippines was a fictional place. That's obviously not true. It was only up for two minutes, though.
Luke Burbank: How did you...
Annie Rauwerda: I think that at large. It is like the best result of this early internet experiment.
Luke Burbank: Wait, I want to just go back to the Philippines. It is made up thing. Did you happen to be on the page for the Philippines? And note it two minutes after it was posted? Do you have some sort of an alert? Does a does a double? You go up into the sky to tell you that something is amiss?
Annie Rauwerda: No, there's a there's a recent changes feed. And if you see someone that's never made any contributions before and suddenly they're editing the article about a video game with no summary of what they just changed, then you might have some suspicions. And so I checked that it was the article about a video game and it just happened to sneak in the untrue fact that the Philippines is fictional.
Luke Burbank: And so then you just what? Do you flag it? You report it. Do you call the Philippines?
Annie Rauwerda: No, not. Can you imagine? Hello? I just press undo and then I send them a warning and I say, Hey, please don't do that. And usually people don't respond. But sometimes, believe it or not, they say, my goodness, I didn't think anyone was paying attention. Thank you. How can I help?
Luke Burbank: So they were just it was a desperate cry for attention that you answered.
Annie Rauwerda: Some of the very best. Wikipedia contributors started as vandals.
Luke Burbank: This is Live Wire. We are talking to Annie Rauwerda, the founder of Depths of Wikipedia. It's also a live show and it will soon be a book, as you know, maybe better than anyone. There is a lot of stuff on Wikipedia. In fact, as of this month, we just checked this. There are 6,802,658 articles. That's as of press time of us recording this at town hall, which is of course a lot of stuff too. Keep organized as such. Sometimes you go on Wikipedia and you're looking for something, something that you thought was like a pretty specific thing. And then you realize it's actually multiple pretty extensive entries for this thing that you thought was just one thing. And that process of listing the other things is called disambiguation, which I found out from you backstage is pretty much made up by Wikipedia as a term.
Annie Rauwerda: But it has sort of entered the lexicon. Yeah, beyond Wikipedia.
Luke Burbank: What I'm going to do is I'm going to give you a variety of descriptions that have come up that I'll refer back to the same term. So these are all the other things that have been basically disambiguated on a Wikipedia post and you get to try to figure out what the core thing is, what we were kind of looking for. Okay. All right. So this thing that's been disambiguated, it is a brand of automobiles produced by the Ford Motor Company from 1938 to 2011. It's also a metallic chemical element with the symbol HG.
Annie Rauwerda: It's inside. Buzz?
Luke Burbank: Yes. Buzz. Buzz.
Annie Rauwerda: Yeah, Mercury.
Luke Burbank: That's exactly right. Wow. I didn't have to give you the easy part. A Roman God. It's also listed as its disambiguate as the nearest planet to the sun. So, okay, that was an easy when we're starting it off easy and then getting easier. How about this one? It's the ornament. A poetic sound effect sometimes used for striking someone. It's also the name of an American radical feminist activist group. It's the device that allows wireless devices to connect to a wired network and to each other. It's also a 2020 song by Cardi B featuring Megan Thee Stallion.
Annie Rauwerda: Buzz. [Luke: Yes.] Is it WAP?
Luke Burbank: It's WAP. WAP. It was WAP. Yeah. By the way, the feminist group was, I'm told, sort of ironically named Women Against Pornography. That was the other rap that we were looking for.
Annie Rauwerda: So you so if you're part of the women's group, well, you would probably hate the Cardi B WAP?
Luke Burbank: I think you I put you against it.
Annie Rauwerda: WAP against WAP. Fight, fight, fight.
Luke Burbank: You hate to see it. You just absolutely hate to see it. All right. How about this? These are things that are all disambiguate it from this particular term, partly made pottery that has been fired but not yet glazed. Okay. A drinking game originating in France using a pair of standard dice. If that brought anyone closer to the answer, that is a miracle.
Annie Rauwerda: Yeah, I want to hang out with them.
Luke Burbank: If you're at the drinking games. A minor league baseball team from Montgomery, Alabama, and this one also will not help, but it's fascinating. This is the name for a card carried at all times by whoever the current U.S. president is containing the gold codes, which are the launch codes for the nuclear weapons. It's called the. Does anybody out there know Townhall biscuits?
Annie Rauwerda: What about a fun, buttery car? Okay.
Luke Burbank: It's it. Listen, we are only listing the disambiguation that was on the Wikipedia page. It's not a guessing game based on just what we could have thought of a better hit for Biscuit. That was it. Like, how do we give some hints that will lead her towards those are just what they've disambiguated on Wikipedia.
Annie Rauwerda: I maybe I need to go and make some edits tonight.
Luke Burbank: Last question, Annie. And like, should the people I know part of where this started for you was the idea that particularly teachers would say to their students, don't use Wikipedia as a source is in your opinion, Wikipedia is something that people can put a certain amount of, like, you know, belief in or that they can trust.
Annie Rauwerda: You should be a little bit skeptical of things you read on Wikipedia. That does not mean that there is no use for Wikipedia. It is the largest and most accessible source of knowledge that humanity has ever had. Today, in the age of AI, when Google results kind of already are deteriorating, sometimes it's the only search result that you get that's written by humans. I think that Wikipedia is invaluable. It's kind of amazing that it works. No one's getting paid. We're just writing this stuff for free. Sometimes there are mistakes, but hopefully when you see mistakes, you fix them. So I think Wikipedia is incredible.
Luke Burbank: Because in fact. It is the trusted source to turn to to find out if the Philippines is real. Annie Rauwerda, Depth of Wikipedia. Everybody. That was an error. Where to write here on Live Wire. Make sure to check out the Depths of Wikipedia on various social media platforms. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarello. We have to take a very quick break, but don't go anywhere. When we come back, we are going to hear some music from folk fiddle master Sami Braman. Live from Pickathon. Stay with us. Okay. Before we get to our musical guest this week, a little preview of what we are doing next week on the show. We will be celebrating Black History Month with a special episode of Live Wire. We're talking to the poet and author Tracy K. Smith About her memoir, To Free the Captives: A Plea for the American Soul. She'll tell us about how she looks to uncover black strength and community through the lens of her own family, which involved her going to Sunflower, Alabama to trace her roots. Then we're going to talk to the writer and poet Saeed Jones. He'll chat with us about his latest collection of poems. It's called Alive at the End of the World. In it, he explores grief and life and what it means to be a black, queer person in a world that. I'm going to be honest, sometimes it feels like it's ending. Plus, we'll hear some music from the performer Meklit. That's all coming up next week on Live Wire. This is Live Wire from PRX. Our next guest formed her first string band, The Onlys, at the tender age of eight. Now, while this may sound cute, the band which still exists, is actually seriously good. They have toured the U.S. extensively. They won first place at the Clifftop Appalachian String Band Festival back in 2017. And these days she's released a debut solo record. It's called Riveter. And it features original fiddle tunes as well as experiments with unconventional fiddling, textures and rhythms. We got to chat with Sami Braman during the Pick a Thon 2024 Music festival. For those of you who don't know, Pickathon, of course, is a four day experiential music festival that brings talent from around the world to an idyllic farm in Happy Valley, Oregon. And I was there. Elena and I can report back. It's idyllic. Take a listen to this. It's our conversation with Sami Braman, recorded at the Lucky Barn from this year's Pickathon Music Festival. You have an album out, Sami Riveter, which you wrote these amazing original tunes for, but I'm curious how it is for you to write something that both reminds folks of a style of music but is new and yours.
Sami Braman: I feel like it's all very influenced by just my love of traditional fiddle tunes. And I mean, I'm obsessed with learning and uncovering and digging up old tunes from Appalachia or from me. I mean, I also am obsessed with Cape Breton fiddle music from Canada and Irish fiddle music and music from Louisiana and Scandinavia. There's just so many different influences that I got to have growing up in the Pacific Northwest.
Luke Burbank: I had read that you started playing fiddle at a very, very young age, like maybe six or something.
Sami Braman: Yeah. I was six years old.
Luke Burbank: Did you was it a fiddle or was it a violin? Did you have a violin period that turned into a fiddle period?
Sami Braman: It was very fiddle driven. The fiddle and the violin are the same instrument. But I feel like this audience knows that.
Luke Burbank: But it's this host may or may not have known that. Let's keep it moving. We'll cut that out. I think it's so interesting because looking at this crowd here in the Lucky Barn, the joy on the faces of everybody here in this kind of music is it's you can't miss it. I don't think anybody could listen to this and not find themselves just feeling emotionally moved. And yet it's it's still a somewhat niche thing. You know, it's like if you know, you know, why is this not the most popular music in America dominating all genres?
Sami Braman: I don't know. I, I listen to so much fiddle music. It's embarrassing.
Luke Burbank: You're listening for the rest of us.
Sami Braman: Yeah. And I feel like it's dance music to the core. That's like what? The music. The fiddle music in America and in other places is most often tied to a dance tradition. And so that's what you got to, you know, make the music that makes people want to dance. And that's a good thing to do with your community.
Luke Burbank: You all are from the West Coast, everybody in this outfit. And yet now you all live in Nashville. Yeah. So what's that like?
Sami Braman: Nashville is. It needs more sidewalks and fewer freeways. That's my those are my critiques from.
Luke Burbank: An urban planning standpoint.
Sami Braman: Yeah.
Luke Burbank: How about musically the planning standpoint?
Sami Braman: But musically, it's incredible to be able to go out to to hear live music most nights of the week. There's just a lot to take in and that feels very unique to Nashville. I feel like that's inspiring and I really wanted to go someplace when I moved there where I was going to be the worst fiddler in the room, and that's been my experience.
Luke Burbank: Well, let's hear a little bit more music then. All right. What are we going to hear?
Sami Braman: This is a tune called Riveter, which is the title track of my album. Thank you all for coming out to this barn and to Pickathon and Luke for the interview. [Sami Braman performs Riveter].
Thank you so much. Have a good afternoon.
Luke Burbank: That was Sami Braman right here on Live Wire. Her album Riveter is available now. We recorded that at the Lucky Barn as part of this year's Pickathon 2024 Music festival. To learn more about the festival visit, Pickathon.com or you can follow them on Instagram at Pickathon and keep an eye out for next year's lineup. That's going to do it for this week's episode of Live Wire. A huge thanks to our guests Annie Rauwerda, Ivan McClellan and Sami Braman.
Elena Passarello: Laura Hadden is our executive producer. Heather de Michele is our executive director and our producer and editor is Melanie Sevcenko. Leona Kinderman and Eben Hoffer are our technical directors and their House Sound Is by D. Neil Blake. Trey Hester is our assistant editor and Becky Phillips is our intern. Our house band is Sam Tucker, Ethan Fox Tucker, Ayal Alves and A Walker Spring, who also composes our music. This episode was mixed by Molly Pettit and Trey Hester.
Luke Burbank: Additional funding provided by the Oregon Arts Commission, a state agency funded by the state of Oregon and the National Endowment for the Arts. Live Wire was created by Robyn Tenenbaum and Kate Sokoloff. This week. We'd like to thank members Alex Bezos of Portland, Oregon, and Julie Jones of Beaverton, Oregon. For more information about our show or how you can listen to our podcast, head on over to Live Wire Radio.org. I'm Luke Burbank. For Elena Passarello and the whole Live Wire team. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next week.
PRX.
