Episode 656

Written By Ashley Park

Ira Madison III and Riki Lindhome

Cultural critic and podcaster Ira Madison III (Pure Innocent Fun) discusses how popular culture has largely shaped his reality... a notion that is put to the test when he faces off with his favorite author (and surprise guest) Chuck Klosterman in a quiz about Chuck's cultural manifesto Sex, Drugs, and Cocoa Puffs. Comedian Riki Lindhome, of the comedy folk duo Garfunkel and Oates, chats about writing "dirty" songs as a new mother, before performing a searingly hilarious tune on the hidden love triangle within The Sound of Music.

 

Ira Madison III

Cultural Critic and Co-Host of Keep It

Ira Madison III is the host of Crooked Media’s pop culture podcast Keep It. His television credits include Uncoupled, Q-Force, Nikki Fre$h, and So Help Me Todd. He has written for GQ, New York magazine, Interview, MTV News, and Cosmopolitan, among other publications. Nylon named him one of the “most reliably hilarious and incisive cultural critics writing now.” He has appeared on The Late Show with Stephen Colbert, Watch What Happens Live, The Wendy Williams Show, and the second season of Netflix drama You. He lives in New York City. Website • Instagram

 
 

Riki Lindhome

Actress, Comedian, and Musician

Riki Lindhome is an actress, comedian, and musician. A former member of the Los Angeles-based experimental theater group The Actors’ Gang, she made her film debut in Clint Eastwood’s Million Dollar Baby and has appeared in Hell Baby, Last House on the Left, The Lego Batman Movie, Knives Out and more, as well as a long list of TV shows including The Big Bang Theory, Brooklyn Nine-Nine, HBO’s Enlightened, Duncanville, The Muppets Mayhem and Netflix’s Wednesday. Lindhome also created and starred in the Comedy Central period sitcom Another Period with Natasha Leggero. In 2007, she formed Garfunkel and Oates with actress Kate Micucci. They wrote, produced, and starred in an eponymous television series on IFC, which aired for one season in 2014. Their 2016 comedy special Garfunkel and Oates: Trying to Be Special was nominated for a Primetime Emmy Award for Outstanding Original Music and Lyrics. Lindhome is currently writing the songs for the Broadway adaptation of the movie Drop Dead Gorgeous following the production’s premiere at the 2024 Edinburgh Fringe Festival. Website • Instagram

 
 

Show Notes

Best News

Ira Madison III

  • Ira is host of the pop-culture podcast Keep It

  • His newest collection of essays: Pure Innocent Fun

  • Ira and Luke discuss a host of pop-culture references including:

  • Ira’s reading talks through the “Disney Renaissance”:

    • The Little Mermaid  (1989), featuring musical number “Under The Sea,” composed by Alan Menken with lyrics by Howard Ashman. The duo went on to compose/write for Little Shop of Horrors and Beauty and the Beast (1991).

    • Not of the renaissance, but worthy of note: The Emperor's New Groove (2000), and the Disney Channel spinoff series, The Emperor's New School

    • Also not of the Renaissance, but an Academy Award winner: The Rescuers (1977)

    • Ira talks through Academy lore, mentioning Composer Stephen Sondheim, and luminaries Shirley MacLaine and Liza Minnelli.

    • Ira references Barbara Streisand, her memoir My Name is Barbara, and author Jonathan Franzen.

    • Aladdin (1992) with musical number “A Whole New World” and lyricist Tim Rice

    • The Lion King (1994) scored by Hans Zimmer. Musical number “Can You Feel the Love Tonight” composed by Elton John with lyrics by Tim Rice.

    • Pocahontas (1995)

    • Musician Gwen Stefani's first solo album, Love. Angel. Music. Baby. (2004)

    • The Hunchback of Notre Dame, with the songs “Topsy Turvy,” “Learning the Word,” and “Sanctuary” 

    • Hercules (1997) with the song “Go the Distance” 

    • Mulan (1998) with a credits song by Christina Aguilera

    • Tarzan (1991) featuring Phil Collins' “You'll Be in My Heart”

Live Wire Listener Question

  • What's the first TV show, movie, book, or song that made you feel understood?

    • Audience member Charles mentions the the movie Singles (1992) by director Cameron Crowe, starring Matt Dillon and others. Luke and Elena discuss the soundtrack, including grunge hit “Would” by Alice in Chains.

    • Audience member Holly mentions Fried Green Tomatoes (1991), starring Mary Stuart Masterson and others.

    • Audience member Whitney mentions Jitterbug Perfume by Tom Robbins.

Riki Lindhome

  • Riki performs a song off her new album, No Worries if Not, titled “So Long Farewell,” which is a breakup anthem on behalf of the Baroness Schraeder from The Sound of Music (1965).

  • No Worries if Not will be released on March 14, 2025.

Station Location Identification Examination (SLIE)

 

  • Elena Passarello: From PRX. It's Live Wire! This week, writer Ira Madison the third. 

    Ira Madison III: I think that you sort of have to align on culture the sort of, you know, the way you sort of want to align on politics with people. 

    Elena Passarello: And music from Riki Lindhome. 

    Riki Lindhome: And the songs are just like, they're just not for everybody. They're for middle -aged people and they're dirty and vulnerable. And if you don't hear a song about, you know, asking someone for sperm, fine, I get it. 

    Elena Passarello: And our fabulous house band. I'm your announcer, Elena Passarello, and now, the host of Live Wire, Luke Burbank. 

    Luke Burbank: Hey, thank you so much, Elena Passarello. Thanks to everyone tuning in from all over America. We have something a little bit unprecedented this week on the show, Elena. Remember when we surprised our guest, Ira Madison, the third on stage? 

    Elena Passarello: Oh yeah. 

    Luke Burbank: It was like something where we hoped he would be surprised at this element of the show, but then it was almost like a borderline too much of a surprise. Like I wondered if he was going to be able to continue. 

    Elena Passarello: Yeah, I feel like his atomic structure was shifting with the surprise that we laid on him, but it was so fun. 

    Luke Burbank: It was and memorable and I can't wait for everyone to hear it this week on the show first though of course we got to start things off the way we always do with the best news we heard all week This is our little reminder at the top of the show that there is still tiny pockets of good news happening in the world. We find those pockets and we tell you about them because we know you need it. Elena, what's the best news you heard all week? 

    Elena Passarello: Okay, so picture this, if you will. It's a March day in Shropshire, England, and 42 year old Mary Karen is buying chocolate at the local convenience store for her nieces. 

    Luke Burbank: Okay. 

    Elena Passarello: She notices this guy, she saw him when she was coming in and he's got his face all covered up and she's like, maybe he's like a motorcycle guy or something, he's got like one of those like turtlenecks that goes all the way up to your eyeballs and a skull cap on. And then he comes into the convenience store and he puts something up against the door and he says, and this sounds very British to me, I am going to take your money. That's what he says to the clerk. 

    Luke Burbank: Oh, this is like the world's most polite robbery. 

    Elena Passarello: Yeah, well, I mean, I think it was pretty rude. I think maybe there were some weapons involved.  

    Luke Burbank: Oh okay, well then not polite at all 

    Elena Passarello: A polite statement, but a pretty dangerous situation. But here's what the guy didn't know. [Luke: Yikes, yeah.] Auntie Mary is actually a black belt martial artist who has spent 20 years studying boxing, karate, and jujitsu. So she just turns to him. He's like, there's a video of this. And he's like putting his hand in his pocket and she grabs his arm and starts like jujitsu, kicking him in the shins. And she kicks him all the way out the door. [Luke: Wow.] And my favorite detail of this, she's wearing high heels when she does it. So Auntie Mary buying chocolates for her nieces in her high heels is a badass. Wow. and the guy runs down the street. And then the best part of the footage is she walks back to the counter, I guess to check on the clerk and maybe to keep buying her chocolates. And she says that her shoes were hurting her feet that day. And that's why she's swaggering like John Wayne. But that walk back to the convenience store counter is pretty swaggy, I gotta say. 

    Luke Burbank: I can't believe that that actually works my whole thing about wanting to learn karate as a kid was because I wanted to find myself in a situation where I was being underestimated by some tough kind of people and then I like do This like amazing self -defense move that everyone is shocked by this is actually what's been playing out for Auntie Mary 

    Elena Passarello: And that's what she said. She said, you know, I've imagined taking the legs of people, more people than I will ever need to. I've been training for this type of event in my mind for over 20 years. And now the event actually happened a couple of years ago, but the best news today is that the West Mercia Police just gave Auntie Mary a commendation award for bravery issued by the police chief that went out this month. And of course she's being very humble about it, but I just think...

    Luke Burbank: I'm guessing that that even though it was a couple of years ago that was the last time anyone tried any funny business in that particular shop 

    Elena Passarello: Yeah. Well, and I think the guy got caught and he was part of a ring of robberies. [Luke: Oh good.] And so all three people are now off the streets, and we have a favorite aunt in Shropshire. 

    Luke Burbank: Absolutely. My best news comes from North Branch, Minnesota, where a couple of siblings, Jenny Olson and her brother, Leo Parkin, were at the funeral for their father, Jerry Parkin. Jerry made it to 91 years old. He was a veteran. He was, you know, beloved within the family and at the church. And Jenny Olson recently told a local TV station there that they were getting ready for the or something, and somebody from the church approached her and said... There's a bunch of people here in Burger King uniforms, and they have a chair. And it was the staff of the local Burger King where Jerry had been going for years. Every morning to have his coffee with his little buddies. They would sit around and as like to say solve all of the world's problems 

    Elena Passarello: Yeah! 

    Luke Burbank: And, uh, he was so beloved by the staff at that Burger King that they in uniform came to his funeral as a total surprise to his children with his favorite chair. There he had, of course he had a chair, like, and the specific chair that he would sit in and they had it engraved with his name and, uh, and, and his, his, his lifespan, his date of birth and his date of death on there. And like, it was this really, really emotional moment, of course, for his family to sort of have this understanding of how much he meant. 

    Elena Passarello: Yeah. 

    Luke Burbank: To these folks at this Burger King. It turns out that the general manager of that particular location did have to call corporate to find out if it was okay to start engraving. Apparently corporate was okay with it so they were able to do this. [Elena: Good.] But I mean, what a sweet story about the way that we sort of impact other people whether or not we're even aware of this. Also, by the way, Jerry's last meal, this is according to his son who was there, Jerry was moving towards the end of his life. And they asked him, what do you want to eat and legit, he said, I want chicken nuggets, a cookie and a shake from the Burger King. 

    Elena Passarello: Which they brought him. 

    Luke Burbank: Which they brought him! 

    Elena Passarello: So this is, I mean, this man, he truly found a place that makes him feel good, like that's fabulous. 

    Luke Burbank: Absolutely. So Jerry Parkins' memory being honored there by the local BK have it your way folks is the best news that I heard all week. All right, let's get our first guest on over to the show. He's one of the hosts of the pop culture podcast, keep it. He's also appeared on the late show with Stephen Colbert, uh, watch what happens live and the Wendy Williams show. His debut collection of essays is called Pure Innocent Fun. Ira Madison, the third, joined us at the Patricia Reser Center for the Arts in Beaverton, Oregon, to talk about the new book, take a listen. Ira, welcome to Live Wire. 

    Ira Madison III: Hi, thank you for having me. 

    Luke Burbank: So nice to get to meet you. I've been a fan of yours for years. Thank you. This is really awesome. You start the book with a quote from Bell Hooks. And the quote is, whether we're talking about race or class or gender, popular culture is where the pedagogy is. It's where the learning is. Do you see pop culture as central to the way that we understand our world? 

    Ira Madison III: I think that it's largely central to how I see the world. It's how I first, I don't know, became comfortable with talking with people at school, making friends, our shared bonds of the things that we watched. And honestly, the quote, to be honest too, just comes from my obsessiveness with the internet culture as well, because I don't know if you remember, there was this... Tumblr that used to mix like bell hooks quotes would say by the bell And that was one of my favorite ones of it. So I ended up using the quote for the opening. 

    Luke Burbank: Well, because right underneath the bell hooks quote is then a quote from Nene Leakes from the Real Housewives of Atlanta. from the. And then she's saying something to the effect of, it's a shame how people can turn something that was pure innocent fun into drama. I'm guessing that that's related to the title of the book. 

    Ira Madison III: Yeah, of course. I think it's the idea that when you, I mentioned in the book, looking back on things sometimes is difficult, because I think we always remember things that we love, whether that's experiences in life, or it's just movies we like, songs that we like, people we may have liked in high school or middle school, etc. You look upon them fondly, because you tend to remember the good things. And I think when you go a little bit deeper in some of those memories. whether it's just through conversation, whether it's through a therapist's office, you realize that not everything was as, you know, pure and innocent or fun. 

    Luke Burbank: You kind of jump right into the first chapter with a defense of the band Coldplay. I do. Which you had a sort of complicated relationship with growing up, it sounds like, cause you really liked them, but you also sensed it was uncool to really like them. 

    Ira Madison III: It was not cool to like Coldplay in the 2000s. You know, when they first debuted, there were a lot of punchlines about liking Coldplay, about liking Chris Martin. I think that has obviously shifted a bit in culture. But no, it's also largely because the book was inspired by one of my favorite books, which is Sex, Drugs, and Cocoa Puffs by Chuck Klosterman. And so my book really was just inspired by how much I love that book. How much a lot of my pop culture, I guess opinions had been formed by it in high school and revisiting it during COVID, particularly when, you know, we were locked in the house and I was just rereading it. I realized that a lot of my opinions were formed from the book, but then a lot of them had sort of changed. And so the book was largely built, not as like a response to the book, but sort of in conversation with it, sort of similar to, I guess. Um. Exile and Guyville being in conversation with Exile on Main Street. 

    Elena Passarello: Yeah. 

    Ira Madison III: Yeah, yeah. 

    Elena Passarello: Oh, this is your Exile in Guyville. Yeah. That's very cool. Yeah. Yeah, that's very cool. 

    Ira Madison III: Yeah, you know, I'm probably as angry as Liz Phair was. 

    Elena Passarello: You're the Liz Phair of like pop culture memoirs and essays. 

    Luke Burbank: This is Live Wire from PRX. We're talking to the cultural critic and writer and podcaster, Ira Madison, the third coming up. We're going to quiz Ira on his knowledge of the book, Sex Drugs and Cocoa Puffs. This is written by Chuck Klosterman and Ira in his book talks about how this book by Chuck Klosterman was a huge inspiration for him. Here is a fun little preview, though. We actually got Chuck Klosterman to surprise Ira on stage. and it was... A whole moment, Elena. Oh, yes, it was. One that is not to be missed. So stick around, more Live Wire right after this. Welcome back to Live Wire from PRX. We are at the Patricia Reser Center for the Arts right here in Beaverton, Oregon. We are talking to Ira Madison III about his new book, Pure Innocent Fun. I'm wondering about your evolution as a pop culture enjoyer and that a lot of the fun around it is deciding what is good and what is bad and like celebrating the stuff that we like and like kind of crapping on the stuff that we don't like. But then also you're talking about things like Coldplay and Liz Fair and lots of other things where, like, I've learned this phrase a while ago, like, don't yuck anyone's yum. How do you, like, have opinions about pop culture without just being kind of, like, dismissive of something that, like, somebody else likes? You know? I mean, how do you hold those two things?  

    Ira Madison III: Well, I feel like I do that every week. 

    Luke Burbank: Is that just a hazard of the game? 

    Ira Madison III: Yeah, you know, I think that there is... First of all, I wouldn't have, you know, this book if I didn't have opinions like that, you know? And I think that I've always enjoyed... someone like say Roger Ebert, you know, when you re -watch old episodes of Ebert and Roper I feel like he was a critic who came to movies, you know, he met them where they're at You know, I think you look at the intent of something That's how you can love a Scorsese film and then you know I was just watching the Traders backstage before I came out, you know It's like you there are different levels of what something is intended for You know, and I think a lot there can be pretentious people, you know, who will put on a PTA film, you know, up against a Paul Thomas. 

    Luke Burbank: Paul Thomas Anderson. 

    Ira Madison III: Yeah, Paul Thomas Anderson. You know, like one of his films up against, I don't know, Taylor Sheridan, you know? I think that, like...

    Luke Burbank: Yellowstone guy. 

    Ira Madison III: Yeah, you know, I think Yellowstone is doing something very completely different than what a PTA film is doing. But you can judge them both on not just their merits, but what they're intended for. 

    Luke Burbank: If you want to lose an afternoon, just get on YouTube and look up Roger Ebert and Gene Siskel recording promos for the show while actively hating each other. It is wild. Somebody just uploaded the raw tape. I mean, it's that where there was no love lost between those dudes, at least on that day they were shooting. That's how I relax is watching old clips of Siskel and Ebert mad at each other. 

    Ira Madison III: You know, I think that you watch that show, though, because it's still a television show, you know? And, like, the crux of a TV show is drama. It's a conflict. And it's fun to have people agree on things. You know, it's fun to agree with your friends. But if you're sitting there and watching someone actually discuss something, you want a little push and pull in the conversation. . 

    Luke Burbank: There is this new docuseries out on Netflix about the Jerry Springer show. [Ira: Yeah.] And you write about the Jerry Springer show in in this book and you mentioned I've just got done watching the the thing on Netflix and you write something in the book that I hadn't really considered which you were Saying it was some of the first representation of queerness that you actually saw like growing up in Milwaukee, talk about that 

    Ira Madison III: Well, I think that all of those shows were essentially, they were supposed to be quote unquote like freak shows. They would parade crazy people out who either lived in like New York or San Francisco, or they were just sort of like on the fringes of society in smaller towns. And they were sort of like a sideshow there. But then when you get older and you move out into the world and leave home, you realize that these are real people who sort of. them. you can interact with every day and become friends with. 

    Luke Burbank: How old were you when you started to identify that you were gay? 

    Ira Madison III: Um, I don't know, when did that Calvin Klein ad come out? Come on. Uh, like the mid 90s, probably, yeah. 

    Luke Burbank: There, you unlocked a memory for me from this book that I had totally forgotten about the, how great the VHS tape cover was for Disney movies, as opposed to like regular VHS tapes, which would be just a cardboard little sleeve. But I think you describe in the book that the Disney ones were like in a pillow. There was something very tactile about them, that particular era of Disney films. I was wondering if you could kind of read from the book here your... You kind of go through a really critical time in the Disney movie universe of when they really just released a series of hits. Would you mind reading a little bit from that? 

    Ira Madison III: The Little Mermaid was released in theaters on November 17th, 1989, and it's the first film I have any recollection of seeing in theaters. Most likely, I saw the film at the shuttered since 2012 Northtown cinemas. Northtown was on the outskirts of Menomonee Falls, Milwaukee district for rich white people that I mostly remember for the Coles we shopped at for back to school clothes. Aside from my pre -Dustin' queerness, thanks to Ariel being my first cinematic heroine. The Little Mermaid was also the beginning of what's been termed the quote Disney Renaissance. If one can point to an era that specifically led to the creation of Disney adults, grown adults who spend their money on trips to Disney World instead of on drugs and alcohol, it is definitely the Disney Renaissance, which is formally considered to have taken place from November 17th, 1989, with the release of The Little Mermaid to June 18th, 1999, the release of Tarzan. Unfortunately for the vastly underrated and comedic masterpiece, The Emperor's New Groove, released in December 2000, it was considered a box office failure and not renaissance worthy. However, it did produce a great two season Disney Channel spinoff series, The Emperor's New School. I've watched it while stoned in the past year and it's still funny. Nostalgia isn't always bad. This decade long renaissance produced 10 films and garnered Disney a series of accolades. The Little Mermaid was the first animated Disney film to get an Academy Award nomination since 1977's The Rescuers. Under the sea, one composer, Alan Menken, and lyricist, Howard Ashman, the Oscar for best original song. Menken and Ashman, it should be said, are also the team behind Little Shop of Horrors, one of my favorite musicals, and certainly the best musical in existence not written by Stephen Sondheim. They reunited for Beauty and the Beast, which won Disney two Oscars. It's fucked that Ashman died eight months before the release of Beauty and the Beast from AIDS complications, but his posthumous Oscar, accepted by his partner, Bill Losh, was presented by Shirley MacLaine and Liza Minnelli, which just feels like gay history. During their speech, they even shouted out Barbara Streisand as their favorite director and that they wanted to make a film with her. But, unless I missed a part in Streisand's Jonathan Franzen length memoir, My Name is Barbara, the movie never came to fruition. And that feels like a hate crime. Aladdin, which features some songs written by Ashman before his death that were ultimately finished by lyricist Tim Rice, won for best original score and best original song for A Whole New World. Hans Zimmer, who played Coachella the same year as Lady Gaga, this is just an important thing to know, I think, won his first Oscar writing the score for The Lion King. Can You Feel the Love Tonight by Elton John and Tim Rice won best original song. Pocahontas. a truly messy film that rewrites racist colonial history, but is also the only whitewashing I will defend with my life. Besides the first two albums in Gwen Stefani's solo career. One Mankin, his final pair of Oscars, which he shares with lyricist Stephen Schwartz. The Hunchback of Notre Dame, which is better than you remember, and I know the only things people remember from it are the songs Topsy Turvy and Learning the Word Sanctuary, was nominated for Best Original Musical or Comedy Score. Hercules is a film I adore, but I also need to acknowledge that people are mostly just trying to seem cool when they claim it's the best animated Disney film. It only has three songs anyone actually remembers. One of those songs, Go the Distance, was nominated for Best Original Song. Mulan was nominated for Best Original Musical or Comedy Score, iconic film, iconic Christina Aguilera song attached to it. Tarzan closed out Disney's Renaissance with an Oscar win for Phil Collins You'll Be in My Heart for Best Original Song. I actually don't think I've ever seen this film, but I love Phil Collins and men in long clothes.  

    Luke Burbank: Ira Madison, the third reading from his new book. This book is a meditation on important pop culture and pop culture that was important to you, also kind of your life growing up. And you write about something that I feel like I could really identify with, in the sense that, I don't know how seriously you were trying to date this person in college, this woman, but if there was even a scintilla of a chance of something happening, it was over for you when she did not laugh once during the watching of the movie Zoolander. 

    Ira Madison III: That is true. 

    Luke Burbank: And I have broken up with people for things more petty than that around pop culture, because you sort of feel like, if we don't both think that Zoolander is funny, how can we have a life together, right? Like, is that the kind of thing for you now in your, you know, current version of your dating life and relationship life, where you've got to be aligned with people on pop culture, or at least that pop culture matters, to really vibe with them? 

    Ira Madison III: Well, I mean, I think that was like a little extreme. I was in college, but no, I think you sort of do have to align on pop culture in a sense, you know, you can't be wanting to get Beyonce tickets, you know, and someone is constantly telling you how much they hate her. So it's things like that. I think that you sort of have to align on culture the sort of, you know, the way you sort of want to align on politics with people. 

    Luke Burbank: We're talking to Ira Madison III here on Live Wire. We're coming to you from the Reser Center for the Arts in Beaverton. Kirkus Review has called Ira a worthy successor to his idol, Chuck Klosterman, which got us thinking. Chuck Klosterman once made the mistake of giving us his cell phone number, and we saved it, and then we used it to call him and ask him if he would swing by the show, and he said yes. So please welcome Chuck Klosterman to Live Wire. 

    Ira Madison III: That's a lot. Hi. Thank you. Wow, okay, now I'm really glad I didn't miss that flight. 

    Luke Burbank: Ha ha ha! 

    Ira Madison III: I almost did. 

    Luke Burbank: Chuck, Ira. Ira, Chuck. 

    Chuck Klosterman: Yeah, great to meet you. 

    Ira Madison III: Great to meet you, yeah. 

    Luke Burbank: Chuck, thank you for being here. It's really nice to see you again. to be here. So, this is the thing, we know that Ira is very familiar with the book Sex, Drugs, and Cocoa Puffs, because Ira, in your new book, you mentioned that you used to read it like on a weekly basis when you were working at Borders and Barnes and Noble, just for something to do. We also feel, Chuck, that you are very familiar with the work because you wrote it. When was the last time that you looked at your book Sex, Drugs, and Cocoa Puffs? 

    Chuck Klosterman: When I wrote it. 

    Luke Burbank: This was something, Elena, who is also a published author, brought up in sound check and something, Ira, that you will probably relate to more and more, which is we, the non -book writers of the world, assume you have the book memorized because you wrote it and yet the authors often have the least grasp on what's in the book. 

    Chuck Klosterman: Yeah I mean you know when you're writing it you read it over and over again and it seems worse every time and then you go out and promote it and after a while you're just kind of lying about it or like actually disagreeing with things you wrote because it seems more interesting or whatever and then I mean I literally have not I don't know I'd be terrified to read that book again to be honest because I mean I was a different person when I wrote that I mean I was 29, I wrote that book in basically 6 weeks, like I mean I have no, you understand me at 29 better than I do, I guarantee you, I guarantee that you do. 

    Luke Burbank: Well, this is how this little exercise is going to go. We want to find out who is actually the expert on Sex, Drugs, and Cocoa Puffs. 

    Ira Madison III: Oh I don't like games. 

    Luke Burbank: Ira Madison, who's based his entire career on it, or the guy who wrote it in a sort of fugue state, Chuck Klosterman. 

    Elena Passarello: The 29 year old. 

    Luke Burbank: So, we're gonna ask you a question about the book. We're gonna see who might be able to answer it first, and then we may expand on the topic a little bit, which could be a chance for you, Chuck, if you wanna relitigate any of this stuff. You know. Many years later. Elena's gonna keep score. Oh, and the top prize for this, the winner will receive a slightly used signed first edition of the book, Sex, Drugs, and Cocoa Puffs. Related question, Chuck, could you sign? This gently used first edition copy of Sex, Drugs, and Cocoa Puffs, at some point, please. Alright, here we go. These are all, these are directly from the book. The author states that he would sooner have his kids deal crystal meth than do what? We do, we do have a hint for all of these. 

    Chuck Klosterman: I mean, do you know? I don't. Oh, have my kid play soccer, which she does. And she's, uh. [Luke: Point, Klosterman.] She's really good, too, so I got to kind of live with that. It is weird because I, like I... I talk about the camera rouge and stuff like this, comparing it, specifically soccer moms, which technically means I'm calling my wife Pol Pot. [Luke: Yeah. But you didn't know this at the time.] I did not know, of course not, yeah.  Which, but it's kind of uncouth, you know? 

    Luke Burbank: Yeah, the follow -up question which you sort of answered, Chuck, was now that you do have children who are at the age when they often do play soccer and stuff, have you actually changed your opinion now, like on the sport or on the whole thing, or you still think that you'd rather they were dealing crystal meth? 

    Chuck Klosterman: Well, you know, with the economy as it is, I mean... I mean Um. Yeah, you know, yes. The answer is yes. There are some things about soccer I do like. Yeah. I like the fact that if it starts at five o 'clock, it's over at seven. Yeah. Whereas like college football is not like that. Yeah. I last nine hours, you know. Baseball. So, yeah. But yeah, so you know, it is very strange. The people remember these books and, you know, it was popular or whatever, as people are still asking me about this stuff and I always got to sort of be the person I was. 20 some years ago, I want to. 

    Luke Burbank: I want to clarify, this was your idea, Chuck. 

    Chuck Klosterman: Oh, it was! It was! 

    Luke Burbank: We asked you if you would come on the show and you were incredibly gracious to do so and you said we should just do a quiz to see if Ira knows more about the booker I do. 

    Elena Passarello: I agree that Ira, I think he's going to come back with the next question. I do a lot of drugs. I have faith in Ira, I think he's going to come back with the next question. 

    Ira Madison III: I do a lot of drugs.. 

    Luke Burbank:  Yes. All right, here's question number two. Question number two. 

    Chuck Klosterman: Equal footing, okay. 

    Luke Burbank: According to the book, what is the first step in the indoctrination of future hipsters? I'll give you a hint. They teach us that, quote, anything desirable is supposed to be exclusionary. It's also one of the parts of the title of the book. I'll give you a hint. It's not sex or drugs or the word and Serial commercials cereal commercials. We're giving it to you. Ira Madison the third ties it up one to one Good to ya. 

    Ira Madison III: Oh, about the Lucky Charms guy, the Trix guy. Trix rabbit. Yeah, the Trix rabbit. Yeah. The person. The bird. They hoard their cereal.

    Luke Burbank: Yeah, it seemed like all the cereal commercials of my growing up years were about children trying to hide cereal from cartoon characters. 

    Chuck Klosterman: No, the Cocoa Puff spirit, at one point, they stick him into a rocket and shoot him in outer space so he cannot access the cereal. Yeah. It's like a real kind of over the top, you know. Like, there, there. I think there was a criminal who was trying to steal cookie crisps and his name. [Ira: The cookie crisps.] His name. was Cookie Jasper, if I recall. If I recall. I mean, have your fact checkers look into that. But I'm pretty sure it was Cookie Jasper. I mean... 

    Luke Burbank: All right, question number three. It's tied one to one. This is a hot game. The author writes in the book, Sex, Drugs, and Cocoa Puffs, that he realizes it might seem crazy for a 30 year old to exist without this item, but he also states that he hopes he'll never own one, because the simple truth is, I don't need that kind of luxury in my life. What is the item that he was writing about? It's, I think for most of us, a pretty important part of our daily cycle. 

    Ira Madison III: A bed? 

    Luke Burbank: A bed. Did you not have a bed at age 30? 

    Chuck Klosterman: Ah, I had a nest. 

    Luke Burbank: Please explain. 

    Chuck Klosterman: I was like, you know, I didn't have a lot of money. I was living in an efficiency apartment. And I just thought, what kind of gratuitous, you know, rich person would have a wooden bed frame? So I just, I took apart a foam, like a, it's in between a couch and a bed. [Luke: Futon.] . So this is a futon without a frame. And I took that apart. And then I bought some bean bags and a bunch of pillows. And I think, like a stuffed Gumby, I had one at a carnival. And I just slept on that. And then. I need a car. That's how it was for until I moved to New York. 

    Elena Passarello: Wow. 

    Ira Madison III: Why not just use the futon? 

    Chuck Klosterman: That would have been the reasonable move, right? 

    Luke Burbank: I see the student has become the master. 

    Chuck Klosterman: Um, I, I think probably because, you know, that was an era in my life where everything I looked at, I think I thought to myself, how could I make this interesting to someone else? Which is sort of how it is when you're in your 20s and you're a writer, sort of. It's like everything that you do somehow seems to be serving the idea that you're gonna write about it later and then that's a huge mistake, it ruined my life. But like, you know, it's. Again. But like, you know, it's... But you gotta go through that, it's one of those things you just gotta do, you know? It's like, I don't know, you can't learn to plow by reading a book or whatever they say, you know? 

    Luke Burbank: I think this is, Ira, you and I were talking earlier about how you're about to launch on your first book tour. Yeah. And I think it's so interesting to kind of see somebody at the beginning of their career and at the very end of their career on the same stage. It's a beautiful kind of circle of life. Chuck, would you mind lifting Ira up Lion King style, if you wouldn't mind? Well, Elena, you were keeping score. Who's getting the book? Who's getting the signed copy?  

    Elena Passarello: Oh Ira for sure. 

    Luke Burbank: Ira Madison the third, wins the book? 

    Elena Passarello: The third, yeah. 

    Ira Madison III: Wow stop this deal. 

    Luke Burbank: Ira Madison III and Chuck Klosterman to me right here on Live Wire, thank you both so much. That was cultural critic, writer, and podcaster Ira Madison, the third, along with his hero, Chuck Klosterman right here on Live Wire. Ira's new book is Pure Innocent Fun. And it is out now. Live Wire is brought to you by Powell's Books, a Portland institution since 1971. Powell's offers a selection of new and used books in stores and online at powells .com. This is Live Wire, I'm Luke Burbank, that's Elena Passarello. Of course, each week on the show, we like to ask our listeners a question. We try to make this as interactive and environment as possible. Now, inspired by Ira Madison III's book, who we just heard from, what are we asking the audience this week? 

    Elena Passarello: We want them to tell us what was the first TV show, movie, book or song that made you feel understood? 

    Luke Burbank: Okay, right. I mean, that is such a critical moment for me was Encyclopedia Brown, because I was always solving mysteries with very low stakes. And you were a genius. And I was a genius. And I worked out of the back of a drugstore. So I just there was a lot of parallels in my life. 

    Elena Passarello: Yeah, totally for me. It was the babysitter's club because I was delusional that I was a good babysitter, which was never true 

    Luke Burbank: So here's what we did. We collected up some answers to that question from actual audience members at a live taping of the show. This is at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon. Let's listen to some of those responses. This is Charles answering the question. 

    Audience Member: You know, living in the Pacific Northwest of this age, of my certain age, it was the movie Singles. It was cheesy, but we got all the inside jokes. 

    Luke Burbank: All right, I know that I said encyclopedia brown that was kind of a joke for me legit Singles. I was a junior in high school 

    Elena Passarello: oh... perfect age. 

    Luke Burbank: I was like very into that music scene and to have the place where I lived represented as like the coolest, most artsy, most everything seen in a Cameron Crowe movie. That was I wanted to like crawl inside that film and like live be like Matt Dillon in that movie. 

    Elena Passarello: And that is one of the best movie soundtracks in history, just hands down. 

    Luke Burbank: It might've been my best ever purchase from the Columbia House music club because... [Elena:For a penny.] I wore that thing out. And still to this day is very listenable. 

    Elena Passarello: Yeah, that Alice in Chains song would, I think, is like the best Grinch song ever. 

    Luke Burbank: Would recommend. Thanks, Charles. Great answer. All right. Here's an answer from Holly. The question was, what's the first TV show, movie, or book or song that made you feel understood? Here's what Holly said. 

    Audience Member: I think it was the first time I saw the movie Fried Bean Tomatoes because I always got the sense that Idgie, the Idgie Threadgoode, the Bee Charmer was queer and as a young queer person it was like, oh they're showing it in movies and so I was like, oh this is so great and it was fun to see it in a big movie like that. 

    Luke Burbank: Wow, that is such a just like kind of simple but important message about representation. 

    Elena Passarello: Yeah, yeah, you wanna see your stories told on film, especially by cool people like Mary Stuart Masterson. 

    Luke Burbank: I was a little young for Fried Green Tomatoes, but what I noticed growing up in Seattle was I just started seeing bumper stickers on cars that said Tawanda with an exclamation point. And I didn't know what that was a reference to, but I said, there's something going on here. 

    Elena Passarello: That's that's I think where a lot of people saw themselves in that movie is they they would be someone who would like Kathy Bates Just drive into a car. I'm older and I bet    

    Luke Burbank: I'm older and I have better insurance. 

    Elena Passarello: Yeah.

    Luke Burbank: Something to that effect. All right, here's one from Whitney, Whitney answering the question of something in pop culture that really resonated with them at an early age. 

    Audience Member: For me it was when I read Jitterbug Perfume by Tom Robbins. It was when I realized that literature could be playful, I guess. So for me that was huge because I'm a playful person and it doesn't always have to be so serious you know. 

    Elena Passarello: That is such a good point about Tom Robbins. Like if you read him at the right time when you're like knee deep in the scarlet letter, you know, and he has so much velocity when he writes and he's having so much fun and he's painting these amazing pictures, like he really does, that's a perfect assessment of Tom Robbins, who we just lost. 

    Luke Burbank: R .I .P. Hey, thank you so much to the brave folks who answered our audience question backstage at the Alberta Rose Theater. This right here, this is Live Wire from PRX. Our musical guest this week is an Emmy-nominated actress, comedian, and musician well -known as half of the comedy duo Garfunkel and Oates. If you're not familiar, they're the duo that brought you such bangers as Pregnant Women or Smug. And this party just took a turn for the douche. We can say that? I guess we could say that. As well as a bunch of other hilarious songs that maybe we can't say on public radio and now She is set to release her first solo comedy album. It's titled. No worries if not. This is a chat with Riki Lindhome who joined us at the Patricia Reser Center for the arts in Beaverton, Oregon. Take a listen 

    Riki Lindhome: Hi, how's it going? 

    Luke Burbank: Riki, it is so nice to see you again. Welcome to the show. And welcome to the show. 

    Riki Lindhome: Nice to see you too. 

    Luke Burbank: I have listened to the new album. I love it. The first track is Don't Google Mommy. [Riki: Yup.] And I'm wondering if, first of all, what a thing for an entire generation of parents to now have to, like, what? to now have. have to, like. Were you having a specific thought about something that is on the internet related to you that you do not want your young child to Google at some point? 

    Riki Lindhome: Do you know it's interesting well now I have I have a two year old now But it was actually when I was trying to adopt I was trying to adopt for a really long time And there was like open adoption in the US and you have to make this pamphlet about yourself, and I was like mmm Because there's like all this section about job and stuff and I was like this is not like this isn't like scream mom material So that's when it actually for the first time occurred to me that it might be strange for my child to Google me I literally had not thought of it until that moment 

    Luke Burbank: Did you, in those, I have a lot of friends who have been through similar applications and it's obviously a huge thing and you really want to put your best foot forward. Did you write, like, person who brought you such songs as Pregnant Women Are Smug? [Riki: No!] What did you put down as you put entertainer, actor, what did you put as your career? What did you put as your career? 

    Riki Lindhome: I think I put entertainer. I made it just kind of vague. Writer-entertainer, I think I wrote and made it. And I just had a picture of me on Big Bang Theory. I was like, that's it. That's nothing else. Stop looking.  

    Luke Burbank: Yeah, that's very wholesome. 

    Riki Lindhome: That's all it is. Yeah. 

    Luke Burbank: Are there things of yours out there that as your child gets older, like maybe when they're a teenager or whatever, that I don't mean anything risque per se, but just like, I don't know, songs you've written, languages, things you did to be funny in your 20s, is there anything on the internet that you're worried about them Googling? That is

    Riki Lindhome: There is zero things that I regret or am actually embarrassed of. I just am like, wait till you're older. Like, you know, we have certain songs from Garfunkel and Oates. Oh, sure. Yeah, they're, if anyone's familiar with the loophole, they'll know what we're talking about. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that wouldn't be a. Oh sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that wouldn't be a Right, no, no, no, not yet. Wait till he's like... Not yet. You know, six or something. No, just kidding. or something. No, just kidding. 

    Luke Burbank: You got married a couple of years ago. 

    Riki Lindhome: Yeah, thank you, thank you. 

    Luke Burbank: And it sounds like because you were in the process of going through a surrogate pregnancy that you had a really unique kind of early dating life with your husband. Yeah. 

    Riki Lindhome: Yeah. Yeah, we started dating, I think, a week before my son was born. So, yeah, but then it worked out. So, you know, I thought it would just be like a single mom with a boyfriend. Like, I wasn't like, come be the dad. Like, you know, no one would do that. I wouldn't do that anyway. And then it just kind of kept evolving. 

    Luke Burbank: Um, I love the title of the, of the album. No worries. If not, it just sort of like so perfectly like ask for something. But also if in any way, me being a human or having needs is a bother to you also ignore it. 

    Riki Lindhome: Totally. I was debating between two titles, either No Worries If Not and Kumquat. Just because I like that word and everyone was very confused about Kumquat. And the songs are just like, they're just not for everybody. They're for kind of middle -aged people and they're like dirty and vulnerable. And if you don't hear a song about, you know, asking someone for sperm, fine, I get it. That's totally fine. Or like about a surrogate or about, it's about, like it's all in there. totally fine or like. So it's not for everyone, it's a niche record. 

    Luke Burbank: You're listening to Live Wire from PRX. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarello. Okay, we've got to take a quick break, but don't go anywhere. When we come back, we're going to play a little station location identification examination and hear a song from Riki Lindhome off her latest album, No Worries If Not. I've heard it folks. It's catchy. It's hilarious. It's censored so that we don't get in trouble for playing it, but you don't want to miss it. So stick around more Live Wire in just a moment. Welcome back to Live Wire from PRX. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarello. All right, it is that time once again in the show where we play a little station location, identification, examination. This is where our esteemed announcer and geography knower, Elena Passarello, is quizzed about a place in the country where Live Wire is on the radio. She's gotta try to guess the place that I am talking about. All right, Elena, are you ready? Yeah. Okay. It's the largest, most populated city in the state that it is located in. And it borders the edge of another state where it has a twin city. We're not talking about the twin cities, obviously, but it's, it's one of those cities that's got almost a mirror image on the other side. 

    Elena Passarello: with the same name. 

    Luke Burbank: Oh, different names. Okay. It sits on the Western bank of a river valley home to one of the most fertile farming areas in the world. So you're thinking Midwest. 

    Elena Passarello: Yeah, I'm thinking glacier, like planes, planes. 

    Luke Burbank: Yes, you're, you're in the right spot. This might help a little bit. The weather channel voted this place to have the toughest weather in America, including Alaska, it beat out Juneau, Alaska, because it sees more dramatic weather overall, including its infamous cold and blizzards going on. There's some spring flooding. They got thunderstorms. There's intense summer heat. 

    Elena Passarello: Ah, okay. 

    Luke Burbank: Are you getting any closer? 

    Elena Passarello: Uhhhhhhh, yeah! How about that? 


    Luke Burbank: Chuck Kloesterman wrote about this place. 

    Elena Passarello: Uh, Fargo. Yes. Yes! That's right Fargo Rock City. 

    Luke Burbank: Yeah, you're totally right. Fargo Rock City: A Heavy Metal Odyssey is the close term in book. So shout out to folks listening on KDSU-FM in Fargo Rock City, North Dakota. This is Live Wire. Okay. Before we get to the Riki Lindhome song, which you really want to stick around for, it's a view of the Sound of Music plot line that I had never personally considered. I want to give you a little preview of what we're doing on the show next week. We are going to talk to a writer who has appeared. You know, everywhere that people listening to this show care about talking the New York Times, talking the New Yorker, I'm talking this American life. His name is Shalom Auslander. Uh, he wrote the TV show happyish. He wrote a memoir with an incredibly memorable name, Foreskin's Lament. Um, and he's got a new-ish book out. It's called Feh which actually probes some topics that I have spent. Time thinking about myself, uh, body shame, uh, and sea monkeys, you know, the usual. of the usual. Also, we're going to hear from the award -winning poet, Simon Shieh. He is a former professional Muay Thai fighter, turned poet. Publishers Weekly calls his book Master, an extraordinary investigation of a painful past. And then we're going to hear some music from the singer -songwriter, Kara Jackson, which we recorded back at the Pickathon Festival. So, make sure you tune in for next week's show. All right. As far as this week's show go, let's jump back into our interview. with the actress, comedian, and musician, Riki Lindhome, at the Patricia Reser Center for the Arts in Beaverton, Oregon. So many people know your work from Garfunkel and Oates. I just thought Garfunkel and Oates was just like a funny couple of names to throw together, but it's basically, what would it be like if a band was made up of the two second bananas from much more popular? [Riki: Yeah.] Much more popular bands? 

    Riki Lindhome: Yeah, do you want to hear the saddest thing? We didn't realize... I don't really watch The Simpsons, and we didn't realize until eight years into our band that The Simpsons had had that joke five years before. It was Garfunkel Oates, in that order, Garfunkel Oates and Messina or something, there was a third name. There was a third name. And we were like, oh, no. And I was like, that sucks. So we thought it was our joke. It was not our joke. But that's okay. 

    Luke Burbank: Well, let's hear a song, what song are we going to hear? What song are we going to hear? 

    Riki Lindhome: Well, this one is, it's a breakup anthem on behalf of the Baroness Schrader from The Sound of Music. So this is true. So I was watching Sound of Music as a kid and I thought it was this love story between this nun and this old guy and then I was watching it as an adult and I was enraged because I was like this man fully has a girlfriend, the Baroness Schrader, and he just tosses her aside for this... woman who can't even keep her job as a nun, and I'm like, and so, and she's very like, okay, I understand, goodbye, and I'm like, I would not feel that way. And I'm like. And so I wrote an anthem for her, so that's what I'm going to play. 

    Luke Burbank: Alright, let's hear it. This is Riki Lindhome on Live Wire. and uh... and what is the name of the song 

    Riki Lindhome: So Long Farewell. Because titles are not copyrightable. So, thank you Sound of Music. Alright, here we go. 

    Riki Lindhome: [Riki Lindhome performs "So Long Farewell"

    Luke Burbank: Thank you, thank you, that's Riki Lindhome right here on Live Wire. That was Riki Lindhome performing the song, the so long farewell from her solo comedy album, no worries if not. All right, that's going to do it for this week's episode of Live Wire. A huge thanks to our guests, Ira Madison, the third and Riki Lindhome and also Chuck Klosterman for being a total mensch showing up as a surprise guest on the show. 

    Elena Passarello: Laura Hadden is our executive producer. Heather de Michele is our executive director and our producer and editor is Melanie Sevcenko. Our technical director is Eben Hoffer. Haziq Bin Ahmad Farid is our assistant editor and our house sound is by D. Neil Blake. Ashley Park is our production fellow. 

    Luke Burbank: Valentine Keck is operations manager. Andrea Castro-Martinez is our marketing associate and Ezra Veenstra runs our front of house. Our house band is Sam Pinkerton, Ethan Fox Tucker, Ben Gilmore, Ayal Alves, and A Walker Spring, who also composes our music. This episode was mixed by Eben Hoffer and Haziq Bin Ahmad Farid. 

    Elena Passarello: Additional funding provided by the James F. and Marion L. Miller Foundation. Live Wire was created by Robyn Tenenbaum and Kate Sokoloff. This week we'd like to thank members Ed & Ann Galen of Portland, Oregon. Thank you. 

    Luke Burbank: For more information about the show or how you can listen to our podcast, head on over to LiveWireRadio.org. I'm Luke Burbank for Elena Passarello and the whole Live Wire crew, thank you for listening and we will see you next week.

    PRX.

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