Episode 662

Kari Ferrell, Zak Toscani, and Ural Thomas & The Pain

Writer and activist Kari Ferrell recounts her rise and fall as the "Hipster Grifter," New York City's infamous scammer of the late aughts, as told in her tell-all memoir You'll Never Believe Me; stand-up comedian Zak Toscani shares the trials and tribulations of growing up goth in Hawaii; and soul group Ural Thomas & The Pain perform “Gotta Say (I Love You)” from their album, The Right Time.

Kari Ferrell

Writer, Activist, and Reformed “Hipster Grifter”

Kari Ferrell is a producer, writer, speaker, activist, and creator whose work is centered around prison reform and mental health. Her production company, Without Wax, is dedicated to uplifting and telling other stories from Women of Color, and she‘s working with Kaling International on a scripted show based on her life. Kari also supports various organizations like Second Chance Studios, Books Through Bars, the ACLU, and other advocacy groups. She lives in Brooklyn with her pup and her partner. Instagram

Zak Toscani

Stand-Up Comedian

Zak Toscani started as a stand-up comedian here in Portland, but it has since taken him all around the world. He has performed at the Bumbershoot Music & Arts Festival, The Bridgetown Comedy Festival, and the The High Plains Comedy Festival and been highlighted by TIME, The AV Club, and The Portland Mercury. He is also the most reoccurring guest on the hit comedy podcast All Fantasy Everything. Website • Instagram

Ural Thomas & The Pain

Soul Music Group

Born in Meraux, Louisiana, in 1939, and moving with his family to Portland, Oregon during World War II, Ural Thomas grew up to become Rose City’s Soul Brother Number One. Already an established singer in his teens, he became the leader of the wild twistin’ rhythm and blues vocal group The Monterays—who achieved regional fame and recorded the canonical single “Push-Em Up” for the local Sure Star Records. His success brought him to Los Angeles where he caught the ear of industry bigwig Jerry Goldstein of The Strangeloves, best remembered for managing Sly and The Family Stone and producing dozens of iconic records by the likes of War, The McCoys, and The Angels. Goldstein saw star quality in the young singer and brought him into the studio with arranger Gene Page (known for thousands of recordings with everyone from Aretha Franklin to Elton John to a veritable who’s who of Motown stars) to record two landmark 1967 singles “Pain Is The Name of Your Game” and “Can You Dig It” for the MCA pop subsidiary UNI. Around this point Ural also recorded a 1968 live LP for MCA’s soul imprint Revue and the 1967 James Brown-informed proto-funk dancefloor dynamite that is “Deep Soul” for Seattle’s Camelot label. All are widely admired and continue to be heard at DJ sets and dance parties worldwide.

Ural Thomas & The Pain's new album Dancing Dimensions will be released in June 2025 via Bella Union. Bandcamp

Show Notes

Best News

• Elena’s story: “World’s Oldest Bird Gives Birth to Yet Another Chick–at Nearly 74 Years Old”

• Luke’s story: “Man, 87, goes viral for party invitation: ‘4 PM until the cops arrive’”

Kari Ferrell

• Luke and Kari discuss Kari’s new book, You’ll Never Believe Me, in which she unpacks her stint as the infamous “hipster grifter” and her subsequent launch into advocacy work.

Zak Toscani

• Zak performs a stand-up set about dentistry and a goth adolescence spent in Hawaii.

Live Wire Listener Question

• What's the most trouble you've ever gotten into?

Ural Thomas & The Pain

• Ural Thomas & The Pain perform “Gotta Say (I Love You)” from their 2018 album, The Right Time.

Station Location Identification Examination

• This week’s shout-out goes to KCND-90.5FM of Bismark, ND.

• Full Transcript

  Elena Passarello: From PRX, it's Live Wire! 

  Elena Passarello: Writer Kari Ferrell. 

  Kari Ferrell: I think that I was a star pupil in master class in manipulation and I just picked up on things really quickly. For better or worse, mostly worse. 

  Elena Passarello: Comedian Zak Toscani.

  Zak Toscani: He goes, it's like your tooth rolled its ankle. And at that point, I was like, hey, man, if you're not a real dentist, it's fine. 

  Elena Passarello: With music from Ural Thomas and The Pain and our fabulous house band. I'm your announcer, Elena Passarello, and now, the host of Live Wire, Luke Burbank. 

  Luke Burbank: We have a fabulous show in store for you this week, so let's get right to it. I'm not sure if you have been following the news lately, but I would say don't. Would be my recommendation. Actually, as a public radio show, legally we are not allowed to tell you what sort of news to follow or not follow, but we thought it might be helpful at the top of this week's show to start off with a couple of things from the news that don't literally, actively suck. With a little segment we call the best news we heard all week. Elena, what is the best news you heard all week? 

  Elena Passarello: Okay, so it's news, but it's old, if this is okay. 

  Luke Burbank: I'll take it from any time period where things were less bad than they are now. 

  Elena Passarello: So this is the story of a Laysan albatross, which is this specific kind of albatross, 90% of which nests on one island, Midway Island, which is that island halfway kind of between Japan and Hawaii. Used to be a big military base there, not there anymore. Now it's just full of albatrosses. They fly over the ocean 10 months out of the year, and then they come back to Midway, almost all of them. So they really have to be protected. And they co-parent a little egg, okay? There is this one albatross. This is wisdom. Guess how old Wisdom is? 45, so ancient, because that's what I am. Like, play along. Well, let's put it this way. She's closer to 100 than she is to 45. How old? We don't know exactly how old she is, but she is at least 74 years old. 

  Luke Burbank: Whoa. I take it back, I'm sorry, 100 was not a bad guess. I apologize. 

  Elena Passarello: You see that little, there's a little band on her foot that says Z333, that was put on her, well, a different version of that number, in 1951. And then she was a fully grown nesting albatross. She's still laying eggs and hatching chicks. She's had about 36 that we know of, but of course we can't know for sure. And Albatross's mate for life, she had a partner named Akeakamai , And every December, bird jerks like me are like waiting with bated breath to see if wisdom's gonna come back to Midway Island. She keeps coming back. She keeps laying eggs. And then in 2023, I think, Akeakamai  didn't come back. Oh, wow. 2024, she showed up and she started dancing because Laysan Albatrosses, when they go on the market, they have this YouTube-able, funky town dance that they do. To learn if they're compatible with a mate that they're gonna co-parent this and sit for hours and hours and hours on this nest with. And guess who came back in December of 2024? Guess who laid an egg? And guess what happened? Yeah!  

  Luke Burbank: Wisdom. Laid this egg and it hatched and it looks like this little albatross is it's healthy.

  Elena Passarello: Wisdom and her new partner, who we don't know anything about, sat on this egg for the better part. 

  Luke Burbank: Presumably younger though. 

  Elena Passarello: Yeah, younger man for sure. Like, 100%.  

  Luke Burbank: Hey, listen, don't hate, congratulate, okay? 

  Elena Passarello: And not to mention, Wisdom's children and grandchildren, we know her granddaughter was born on the island not too long ago, so she's beating out multiple generations for these new hot suitors, which is very exciting to me. So, yeah, if you're ever looking, if you ever looking for something to cheer you up around November, December, January, all of the albatrosses on Midway, and there are tens of thousands of them, are really fun to keep track of. And the people who love wisdom will always put a smile on their face because they are so full of joy because of this great part. 

  Luke Burbank: Wisdom, the Albatross, man. That is, it's a tough act to follow, Passarello. Sorry. The best news I saw this week came by way of Bucks County, Pennsylvania. A woman named Michelle Hernandez and her husband moved out there a few years ago. They bought a house and it's a pretty good neighborhood. They do have this one neighbor though that like throws this rager party every year. Oh no. But it turns out this guy is 87 year old Doug Turner who we have. 

  Elena Passarello: Yeah, Doug! 

  Luke Burbank: We have some ring camera evidence of Doug Turner dropping off the invite to this party at Michelle Hernandez's house. The thing that's interesting about this party that Doug Turner has been throwing every year since his wife passed away some time ago, it's a way for him to stay connected to the neighbors. Doug, though he is 87 years old, he is not in any way diminished in terms of his partying. This is the invite, which I think we also have a picture of. It says, 4 p.m. Until the cops arrive. Because so many people now have these ring cameras, this was all filmed at Michelle Hernandez's house. I mean, she wasn't planning on it, but then Doug showed up with the invite. So she went back and got the footage and put it online. And of course, it's the internet, so everybody went crazy for it. People started calling Doug to try to figure out where the party was. 

  Elena Passarello: Because there's numbers on the invitation. 

  Luke Burbank: Like, so, and then the media started interviewing him, and then he had to remember in the interviews to not give away too many specifics about where in Bucks County they are. Luckily, they were able to keep it relatively under wraps. They had the winter party was a big hit. I don't know if the cops were called or not. It seemed like it was a peaceful affair. [Elena: Oh, good.] But I mean, just the fact that Doug Turner is bringing the neighborhood together at a time when I feel like we need more, we need Doug Turner energy going on around here. I'm gonna say that's the best news I heard this week. All right, let's welcome our first guest on out here. Now, listen, before scammers were getting the royal treatment with all these Netflix documentaries now, it's like you do something and then they make a whole show about it. Well, our first guest was making headlines before this was a whole thing, within a very specific kind of social circle. She was dubbed the hipster grifter after a series of kind of like mid-level fleecing of a certain kind of Williamsburg Brooklyn person. She did some time, and now a decade later, she has re-entered the public eye with her memoir, You'll Never Believe Me, which the New York Times Book Review calls, captivating, sharp, and very funny. Please welcome Kari Ferrell to Live Wire! 

  Luke Burbank: Kari, welcome to Live Wire. 

  Kari Ferrell: Thank you so much for having me. This is crazy. Wow, thank you. 

  Luke Burbank: I was one of the folks very aware of the kind of media storm around you back when you were being dubbed the hipster grifter. Let's start though with a little bit of sort of biographical information. You were born in Korea and then you were adopted by your parents at about what age? 

  Kari Ferrell: Yeah, I was about five months old. My parents are the whitest white people you've ever seen. And this is Portland, so I'm looking around and I'm seeing. I see.

  Luke Burbank: These folks know from whiteness. 

  Kari Ferrell: I feel at home. Yeah. 

  Luke Burbank: You grew up Mormon. How big of a part of your life growing up, and your family moved to Utah for this. How central to your existence was Mormonism for you as a kid? 

  Kari Ferrell: It was everything. I mean, it was one of those things where, if you were non-Mormon, which they're very few and far between, people in Utah, you were like begging your parents to let you go to church because it controlled your entire life, your social calendar, you know, every facet of it. So, yeah, it a very interesting upbringing, especially because I look the way that I do. 

  Luke Burbank: Yeah, were you, I mean, my guess would be that in most scenarios, you were the only person who looked like you in most of the rooms you were in. [Kari: Yeah.] Like, how did you try to make sense of that? How did you navigate that as a kid? 

  Kari Ferrell: I mean, it started with really, I think part of the reason I'm so outgoing and my personality and ridiculous sense of humor is born out of the fact that I was like, all right, I know that I have to make fun of myself in a better way than anyone else before they do it. 

  Luke Burbank: There is a point in the book where you kind of it seems like there's a shift in you Where you realize that you can just lie to people basically you figured out lying is going to give people the answer They want and I can just be on with my life Do you remember that being kind of like a a pretty big moment of realization for you? 

  Kari Ferrell: I do, and that's because up until that point, I really was sort of the quintessential perfect Mormon child, one of those things where I was like, oh, I don't want to say the word but. You know, ugh. And yeah, there was this weird freedom that came with that, where I like, oh, people will just believe what I'm saying. And then, I guess, bigger picture, I looked at people around me and the church specifically and how they were doing that, and so. I think that I was a star pupil in master class in manipulation and I just picked up on things really quickly for better or worse, mostly worse. 

  Luke Burbank: We call that foreshadowing in the business, because we're gonna hear more about that in a moment. This is Live Wire from PRX. We're talking to the writer, and we're happy to say reformed scammer, Kari Ferrell, about her book, You'll Never Believe Me. We've gotta take a very quick break, but don't go anywhere. We will be right back. Welcome back to Live Wire from PRX. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarello. We're at the Alberta Rose Theater in Portland, Oregon. And we are talking to Kari Ferrell about her book, You'll Never Believe Me, A Life of Lies, Second Tries and Things, I Should Only Tell My Therapist. Kari, you became kind of famous in the certain kind of social circles for some scamming that you were doing, but that was in New York when this first became kind of a national story. But before you got to New York, you had started stealing from some people and lying to people in Utah that you knew, including, you write in the book, like a boyfriend that you really liked. 

  Kari Ferrell: Yeah. 

  Luke Burbank: Like what do you think was going on psychologically for you that you were doing this thing that you must have known had to lead to the end of the relationship? 

  Kari Ferrell: First off, I love unpacking trauma in front of a live audience. Wow, this is great. No, I think that, again, I was very much still myself throughout all of it, and as things escalated, I get the question a lot of, well, why did you not use aliases, fake names, why were you going to places, and I guess picking up people that you would legitimately be friends with, and it was just an issue of identity. And it was an issue of not having a community to fall back on. And I really just was addicted not to drugs or even the money. It was more so the attention for sure, but also of not being forgotten. And I mean, I think it's kind of adopted kid abandonment 101, but I was like, yeah, I just need to be remembered for, yeah. 

  Luke Burbank: So it must have been incredibly stressful, or maybe it wasn't. I don't know, you tell me in those early days where you're starting to lie to your friends and you're writing these bad checks to your boyfriend's checking account, which you know is eventually gonna come back on you, and yet you're also living this kind of fun lifestyle with all these people. Did it just feel like there was always a sort of another shoe that was gonna drop somewhere for you? 

  Kari Ferrell: For sure, and you know, a lot of people, I think had this vision of me plotting and planning, you know with like my red string and cork board, you know putting it all together, but it really wasn't like that at all. I was just operating under the idea that by the time these checks would bounce, that I would have the money to pay the person back. And sometimes that did happen more often than not, obviously it didn't. But it was never a thing where I intentionally was like, I'm going to scam this person. It was really just, you know, I also had a job. So it wasn't even that I needed the money. Again, it was like I wanted to treat my friends. I wanted be buying things, obviously for myself, but also for them. So it was really a way for me to ingratiate myself into these groups of people. And you know in retrospect now, I'm like, oh, I didn't need any of that. But for whatever reason at the time, I really felt like I had to do everything that I could to solidify myself as a person that people wanted to be around. 

  Luke Burbank: Right, so you would be essentially stealing money from people and then taking a bunch of people out to like Applebee's. 

  Kari Ferrell: Yeah. 

  Luke Burbank: And buying the whole meal for everyone. 

  Kari Ferrell: The Old Spaghetti Factory, but yeah. 

  Luke Burbank: Oh, hell yes. 

  Elena Passarello: Better choice. 

  Luke Burbank: Actually, that place is pretty good. Y. 

  Kari Ferrell: You get to be in a trolley car. I mean, that's pretty cool. 

  Luke Burbank: So you did end up moving to New York. What were you thinking was gonna happen in New York? Was the idea to move there and reinvent yourself yet again as a law-abiding citizen? 

  Kari Ferrell: Yeah, I mean, I thought exactly that. I was like, okay, here's my opportunity. I knew also that I wanted to be somewhere that had more culture, but I went out there thinking exactly that, that I was going to just live a quote unquote normal life. And you know, I did that for five or six months, tried to find a job. Lo and behold, you know New York City is an expensive place to live. Who would have thought? Again, people were like, oh, you're too smart for your own good. I was like, no. No, all of these decisions were so stupid and I wasn't really thinking at all. And so it led me to needing to make money somehow. And I mean, unfortunately, most people know what it's like to be one or two paychecks away from not knowing what they would do to get money. And I think that's another reason that the story ultimately is very relatable because it's easy to see yourself on either side of my circumstance. And, you know, obviously that's not to negate any of the very, very poor decisions that I made, but, you know, one of the reasons that I wrote the book was really to help to get that message out there. And, my goal is really just to help people hopefully, you know, move the needle toward a more compassionate society. 

  Luke Burbank: It's Live Wire Radio, we're talking to Kari Ferrell about her book, You'll Never Believe Me. It must have been this kind of crazy moment for you where you are suddenly the obsession of this social group that you had really wanted to probably break into, right? Again, all of the people of a certain kind of hipster class in New York City are talking about you. Your mugshot is posted, people are comparing notes about their interactions with you. So you're like kind of the person they're talking about but like not for. Maybe the best reason like what did that feel like for you? 

  Kari Ferrell: It was wild, and I mean, at the time, I really didn't understand why people cared or why they were so interested. I mean this was 2008, 2009, so obviously social media didn't exist in the way that it does now. So it really was one of the first viral scam stories. I mean the moniker Hipster Grifter, I remember there being articles, within the articles having to explain what a grifter was, because it just was not part of our vernacular. Now it's like everyone's a gritter, everything's a Grift. But at the time, people were like, wait, what is a hipster and what is it really? And me, being an actual hipster, I was like, oh, God, the hipster part of it. Like, that was like the worst part of to me. 

  Luke Burbank: I was wondering if you were like a little bit flattered by that. 

  Kari Ferrell: No, I was not I you know, like I guess I've accepted it because I have to you it is a part of me for sure, but Yeah, but shout out to the Observer I guess because how smart of them to coin like that's really what made it such a viral story but yeah, it was really interesting because I still never felt like I fit in and It was you know I guess. Again, I wanna be very clear, I'm like aggressively accountable for what I did, but ultimately, you know, I was thrown up on a most wanted list with people who did far, far worse things. We just, you now, 2009, Obama was president, we had hope, you there were all of these things. [Luke: Don't remind these people.] I know, I'm so sorry, I shouldn't bring that up, I apologize. But we had just, we were recovering from a recession. Yeah, it was very race-based and misogynistic. It was kind of like, look at this cute Asian girl who is actually this fierce, bad dragon lady kind of thing. And at a certain point, the state of Utah really just wanted to throw the book at me. 

  Luke Burbank: So you sort of got tricked into going to Philadelphia, thinking that you're gonna go on tour with your friend's band and maybe make your way back west, but instead the cops are there for you. You get arrested. And this is where the story really takes a bit of a turn because you ended up spending, I don't know how long it was in Philly, in detention before they could take you back to Utah, but it was a little bit of time and you really started to connect with the other inmates in the jail that you were in. 

  Kari Ferrell: Yeah, I, so I went to Philly exactly to go on tour with a friend's band. And I was like, all right, I'm going to turn myself in in Utah. This was after hiding out in basically a flop house in Brooklyn for a couple of weeks, because people there were, there was literally like a manhunt for me through Gawker and things where people were, you know, like, I saw her in this place. Um, and so I, the idea was that I was going to have the sort of final hurrah on tour. And then once they got to Salt Lake City, I would turn myself in. That's what I was telling myself. Do I believe that? I mean, that's really what I thought. But I thought a lot of things at that time. But yeah, I got off of the bus and yeah, the police were there to apprehend me. And I spent almost 30 days in the correctional facility there before I was con-aired back to Utah. Like literally in handcuffs on a plane. 

  Luke Burbank: You went back to Utah and then did you get a plea deal? Like how long did you end up actually staying in jail over this stuff? 

  Kari Ferrell: So in total, it was almost a year. And to answer your other question about, I started making these connections with the other people that I met there. And up until that point, I hadn't really had much experience with the legal system, with the judicial system, the carceral state in general. And so it was this eye-opening moment to me where I was like, oh, it's all different types of people. You have an idea of what a criminal looks like. And I think, again, a reason that my story took off. Is because I don't look the way that most people would think. And now it's like statistically, there are so many people who are incarcerated. Everyone here, everyone listening, knows someone who's been affected by the system. And so seeing the system and how it really wants to keep people in for a number of reasons. My life now is really dedicated to advocacy and, you know, just trying to get people to view. Punishment specifically through a different lens because we're really not doing anyone any favors when we let people out with nothing and expect them to just get better. 

  Luke Burbank: Yeah. Have you, you know, by the way, this book is really great. Like you're a really good writer. Thank you. I'm glad, I'm really glad that like this, you know, this seems like a pretty good outcome from all of this because you are a very talented writer. But I'm guessing that the, you know, the internet being the internet, not everyone is jazzed about you having a book deal over this, over these things that were crimes and where you did lie to people and stuff. What do you sort of say to somebody who's hearing this on the radio and they're like wow, that's a pretty sweet deal You did these scams and now you wrote a book about these scamps and now your on Live Wire the ultimate honor 

  Kari Ferrell: Yeah, I mean it truly is the ultimate honor. 

  Luke Burbank: I mean, no, but seriously, that must be a conversation that's come up. 

  Kari Ferrell: For sure, and I mean to that I sort of would hold a mirror up and ask people why they feel that way, particularly when, you know, people like Jordan Belfort, when people like Frank Abingale, the Wolf of Wall Street. 

  Luke Burbank: Catch me if you can, Guy. [Kari: Exactly.] Luke: I'll just keep translating. Criminals. 

  Kari Ferrell: Yes. It's interesting that those people can have all of these things happen and then you know do kind of this like speaking circuit where they get paid thousands and thousands of dollars to talk at some like financial conference right. Why is that okay but a person who did far less and who really is trying not and I don't I don't know them so you know they they're very well maybe like a nonprofit component to what they're doing and they're an advocacy component, but why? Then will people look at me and be like, oh, she should not be able to write a book or profit off of this thing. And I'm really not trying to profit off of the crime part of it. That's such a small part of the book, which actually, there's some good reads reviews where people are like, I went into this thinking it was gonna be so much more salacious, so I'm sorry for those people. That's the ultimate grift, right? That may have been your greatest scam. Yeah, it really is. 

  Luke Burbank: This is Live Wire Radio, we're talking to Kari Ferrell. Okay, you did get the nickname the hipster grifter, the observer, I guess, somebody there put that nickname on you, which just kind of follows a long standing tradition of like the media and law enforcement, sort of trying to put nicknames onto criminals and suspects and people they're looking for. We wanted to see how aware of this world you are from your experience, so we thought we would run a little quiz with you of other criminals. To see if you can figure out how they got their nicknames. It's a little game we're calling Identity Theft. Okay, why was Colton Harris Moore dubbed the Barefoot Bandit by media outlets? And it's multiple choice, so you've got options here. Was it because he removed his shoes before each burglary to reduce his carbon footprint? Was it he committed his crimes barefoot? Was it that he exclusively stole left shoes from high-end shoe retailers? Or was it because he claimed shoes were, quote, government tracking devices in his manifesto? 

  Kari Ferrell: I want to say it's the left shoe. 

  Luke Burbank: Oh, he committed his crimes barefoot. 

  Kari Ferrell: Boring. 

  Luke Burbank: And then he would write, he would also like, draw these little chalk footprints and he would the letters C-Y-A, like see ya, at some of the crimes. He stole an airplane in Bonners Ferry, Idaho, and he crash landed it 260 miles away, which made sense because he had never flown an airplane before this. He had studied it on the internet on how to do it. He also then got better at flying airplanes. He stole a different airplane in Indiana. Flew it to the Bahamas where he crashed it in like the water right off of the Bahamas then stole a boat which the police shot the engine out of as he was trying to escape 

  Elena Passarello: Was he wearing shoes? 

  Luke Burbank: He was just going to ask. This is the whole point. Despite the widely reported nickname, officials say he was usually wearing shoes. How about this, how did the liquor store Lothario, that was the nickname, how this person get the nickname The Liquor Store Lothário after stealing a bottle of vodka? Was it because he made a kissy face to the security camera, was it because he left his name and phone number with the clerk? Asking her on a date. Was it because his plan was to give the vodka to his girlfriend as a gift? Or was it D, he was turned in by his wife when she discovered he had a girlfriend. 

  Kari Ferrell: It has to be that he asked the clerk out. 

  Luke Burbank: You're absolutely right. 

  Kari Ferrell: If I know anything, it's dumb men. 

  Elena Passarello: Ha ha ha! 

  Luke Burbank: Uh... You're absolutely right he uh... Handed the clerk his name and phone number which made it really really easy for the police to track him down. 

  Kari Ferrell: Amazing. 

  Luke Burbank: Okay, now we're hot. You've got one right, let's build on this. How did the bank robber, the irreconcilable differences bandit get his name? Well, that really trips off the tongue, doesn't it? Was it, this was apparently a real nickname that a bandit had, was it because this bandit got into a dramatic fight with his accomplice who left in a huff midway through the robbery? Was it because he demanded that the tellers place the money evenly into two separate bags? Was it cause he shared with the teller that he was going through a divorce? Or was it cause was turned in by his ex-wife who recognized him from the security camera footage? The irreconcilable differences bandit. 

  Kari Ferrell: I really, I want it to be the first one. I want some of the storm happening. 

  Luke Burbank: Had a break up happen. 

  Kari Ferrell: Yeah, like during during but is it the last one? 

  Luke Burbank: It is neither of those. It is that he told the teller he was going through a divorce. I'm telling you, these bandits just need someone to talk to. 

  Luke Burbank: We need someone to talk to. Was that part of your thing? 

  Kari Ferrell: We need community. We need belonging. [Luke: However you can get it.] Well, maybe not however you can. But you know. 

  Luke Burbank: I would say that this guy might have deserved to do at least a little bit of time after telling the teller that he was going through a divorce, he also requested her help in wiring the money in such a way that his estranged wife's attorney would not be able to track it. So I feel like less bad for him now. 

  Kari Ferrell: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

  Luke Burbank: Well, not bad. The book is great, that's the good news. The book is You'll Never Believe Me. Kari Ferrell, thanks for coming on. 

  Kari Ferrell: Thank you so much! 

  Luke Burbank: That was writer and now activist Kari Ferrell here on Live Wire. Her new memoir, You'll Never Believe Me, is available right now. Live Wire is brought to you by Powell's Books, a Portland institution since 1971. Powell's offers a selection of new and used books in stores and online at powells.com. This is Live Wire, I'm Luke Burbank, that's Elena Passarello. Of course, each week we like to ask our audience a question inspired by Kari Ferrell's life on both sides of the law. We asked our listeners something. What do we ask them, Elena? 

  Elena Passarello: We wanted to know what's the most trouble you've ever gotten into?

  Luke Burbank: So here's what we did, we actually sent our production fellow Ashley Park out into the audience at a recent live taping of the show at the Alberta Rose in Portland and had some people answer that very question. What is the most trouble you've ever gotten into? Now this is kind of a long story from Anna, but it pays off, Elena. Take a listen to this. 

  Anna: Um, when I was around 12, I hated school and I was really obsessed with Miss Stevie Nicks and I decided that I should go to Marina Del Rey where I heard that she lived, but I lived in Western Massachusetts. Every day for like 10 days I skipped school and plotted out on a map how to ride my bicycle, which I bought with money that I had saved without my parents knowing so that I could ride my bike from Massachusetts to California to meet Stevie Nicks. 

  Luke Burbank: This is a real caper, by the way. You've got the, you know, the 10 days where Anna is just like practicing her riding skills. She's got the bike that she purchased without her parents' knowledge. There's maps. 

  Elena Passarello: And she's skipping school. 

  Luke Burbank: That's actually gonna come up here in the rest of the story that ends up being her undoing not to spoil anything 

  Anna: I got farther and farther on my bike every day, but I always had to turn around because I hit like a highway or something and then I got caught. Every day the school called to say that I wasn't there and I had been erasing them from the answering machine, but one day I think I left on my bicycle too early and they got the call, they found out the jig was up. They found my maps with the little trails to Marina Del Rey. They were determined. Yeah, I was determined. 

  Elena Passarello: Wow, this is like a fifth grader. 

  Luke Burbank: I mean, that's my question is, as the parent, how are you feeling in that moment? Because, you know, obviously you're probably a little shaken up, like this kid was going to try to ride their bike across the U S but also kind of proud. Yeah. You know, kind of impressed at the ingenuity. I bet Stevie Nicks would be really proud of this level of rockitude. Exactly. I'm an 11 year old. All right. Uh, let's listen to this response from Kim, the most trouble Kim ever got in also recorded backstage at the Alberta Rose. 

  Kim: I said the F word as a kid, and my mom found out from the neighbor and put soap in my mouth. And she said, don't ever do that again. And I did it the next week. And I got the same behavior. 

  Elena Passarello: This reminds me of in the very conservative South where I lived, my best friend's brother got his mouth washed off with soap for saying bahonkus.

  Elena Passarello: Ha ha ha ha! 

  Luke Burbank: Is that even, have we even confirmed that that's a bad word? I guess maybe. It's bad word adjacent, which is enough, depending on where you might be in the country. Well, anyway. 

  Elena Passarello: Bahonkus.

  Luke Burbank: Thank you to Kim and Anna for telling us their stories of wayward youth here on our audience participation point. Thanks also to Ashley Park for collecting up those answers. Our next guest has performed at Bumbershoot in Seattle, as well as the Bridgetown Comedy Festival in Portland, also the High Plains Comedy Festival, and literally hundreds of living rooms throughout the U.S. And Canada. And in case you think that's just me being a little hyperbolic, he has actually been making a living. Playing comedy shows in people's living rooms all over the country. There was even an article written about it in vulture. He is a frequent guest also on the all fantasy, everything podcast has been highlighted by time, the AV club, and maybe most notably my personal TikTok algorithm, Zak Toscani joined us at the Alberta Rose theater in Portland, Oregon, take a listen. 

  Zak Toscani: Thanks for having me. How we doing, Portland? This is awesome. I had a tooth scare recently. Woke up with half of my lower jaw swollen, and that sucked. That was a today problem. Sometimes you get a tooth problem, you're like, we'll wait. We'll wait a week, see what happens. This was like, oh, I'm going to see the dentist today. And I went in, and in Portland there's a stand-up comedian who does dentistry. This is why I love this city. So I went in there, and he does all the x-rays, then he looks at the x rays and he comes back and I'm like, oh, here we go, about to find out what's going on. So I go, what'd the x ray say? And he goes, man, I don't know. And I went, oh, no. And he goes, yeah, man, teeth are weird. So I'm sitting there, and he just says my teeth are weird, and I was like, can you give me anything else? And he goes, okay, let me break it down to you like this. And I was, like, oh, finally he's going to speak in layman terms. I was lost with all the doctor speak of, I don't know, and teeth are wierd. He goes, it's like your tooth rolled its ankle. And at that point, I was like, hey man, if you're not a real dentist, it's fine. You can tell me. That was actually worse information. I can't go get a second opinion on that being the first opinion. Not gonna go see a second dentist and then I would the first one say, I'd rather not. I had a pretty weird childhood growing up. My family, my mom got remarried. We moved to the big island of Hawaii when I was in fourth grade. And if you're not familiar, the big Island of Hawaii, it's the biggest island, but it's least populated. It's not Oahu, it's not Maui. Honolulu's not there. And when we moved there, I was fourth grade, but I was also goth. And if you're not familiar, Goths are not indigenous to Hawaii. We aren't invasive species. You don't hear a lot about tropical gothicles, you know? I remember what I was wearing when I arrived to Hawaii. Like, wow, I live here. I was wearin' Jinko jeans. If you have teenage kids, they're back. They're around. I had a white zombie T-shirt. I had puka shell necklace that I painted black. Because I thought I could bridge the cultures. It's like, well, they give me shills, and I teach them how to be sad a lot. So, I look like Billy Island-ish. I had a bowl cut that I dyed jet black because I thought it would look cool and dark, but it just meant from behind I'd get constantly confused for a Japanese tourist. By other Japanese tourists. They'd be like, hey, the bus is leaving. Oh my God, ho. It's just a demon child. But very shortly after I moved there, I hit a growth spurt. I grew about three inches over summer. And suddenly none of my goth clothes fit, you know? Suddenly my Jnco jeans were like Capri's. Kind of like how my pants are now. And I was like, Mom, now I look crazy. So you need to take me to Hot Topic now. My mom was like, Zak, we live on the big island of Hawaii. You are the hot topic. So she had to buy me a whole new wardrobe from a surf store, which I think we can all agree, it's a little bit different vibe than a goth kid. Surf kids, they love the earth, they wanna be here. They're like, let me ride these waves. I wanted to be underneath them. So my mom bought me board shorts and aloha t-shirts. And she was like, that's your new wardrobe. And I was like you have screwed me woman. I can't be a goth kid wearing board shorts and Hawaiian T-shirts. I tried, I went to school for one day. And my friends were like, whoa, you can't do that. You're wearing an Aloha T-shirt. You can't that if you're goth. And I'm like, well, this one just means goodbye. If you look closely all the flowers are dying. All the ships are crashing into the rocks. I got another one inside, it's just sea turtles and plastic straws. I knew I was the only goth kid because I was the only one in ukulele class trying to play Freak on a Leash by Korn. Got a corn fan in the audience, I like that. I tried to start a goth ukulele band when I lived there. We were called Laid to Rest. I won't apologize. I look back fondly on being a goth kid in Hawaii because I must have ruined a lot of people's vacations. Just being in the background of a photo, you know? Pre-cell phone time so you didn't even know what kind of vacation photos you had until weeks later. You're like, look at my beautiful family on the, what the hell is that? Just me wearing all black, wearing Doc Martens laced up on a beach, listening to Papa Roach, that was my favorite band. The Big Island of Hawaii has 11 of the possible 13 Earth climates, and my favorite man was Papa Roach. Just be on the beach like, cut my life into pieces, this beach. Is a resort. But I'll remember, I don't know if anyone here is a recovering goth, but I remember the day where I put down my sword, you know, stopped being goth. It was a very, I remember it. I can remember that very instant. It was when I tasted mango for the first time. I had one slice of Hawaiian mango and I was like, God is good. You guys have been excellent. Enjoy the rest of the show. Zak! 

  Luke Burbank: Right here on Live Wire. That was Zak Toscani, recorded live at the Alberta Rose Theatre in Portland, Oregon. All right, this is Live Wire. We have to take a very quick break, but don't go anywhere. When we return, we are going to get some music from Portland's own Ural Thomas and the Pain. We promise it's not as scary as it sounds. Stay with us. This is Live Wire. Welcome back to Live Wire from PRX. I'm Luke Burbank here with Elena Passarello. All right, we have made it to one of my very favorite parts of the show. I know this creates a certain amount of stress for you, Elena, because you are a high achiever. I know that you like to do well on tests, and this is where we test you about the location of a radio station in America that's playing Live Wire. We call it Station Location Identification Examination. Are you ready to play? 

  Elena Passarello: Yes, I'm ready. I'm downloading the maps of the world into my head right now. 

  Luke Burbank: Uh, this city is home to the, what's called the skyscraper on the prairie. It's a 21 story art deco tower. It is the tallest building in the state. It's also the second tallest state Capitol building in the country, the whole United States. It's the second, tallest state capitol building. 

  Elena Passarello: It's the state capital on the prairie. So it's either Pierre or Bismarck. 

  Luke Burbank: Oh my goodness. It's amazing to watch your mind work. You now have a 50, 50 chance. 

  Elena Passarello: Uh, let's go with, because I love French things, Pierre, South Dakota. 

  Luke Burbank: That is so close. It's, it's Bismarck. It's Bismark, North Dakota, where we're on the radio on KCND there in Bismarcks. Shout out to everybody listening there in North Dakota. I have actually been on the grounds of the state Capitol there in BismarCK and it is really lovely. And that building is really cool. It's Art Deco. It is notable. You see it from far away. Twenty-one stories is no joke. Not a lot of other stuff that tall around there. Anyway, congratulations, Elena. Another success for you playing Station Location. 

  Elena Passarello: Sort of, with a great assist by Luke Burbank. 

  Luke Burbank: Hey, before we get to our musical guest this week, a little preview of what we're doing on the show next week, we're going to be talking to the writer, Danzy Senna. Uh, this was part of the Portland book festival. Danzy has a new kind of dark comic novel out. It's called colored television and it is really incredible. Kind of tackles this sort of area of Hollywood, the industry that you might call the like racial identity, industrial complex, and sort of the deals that people might make to get the version of their life they think they want. Uh, then we're going to have a chat with the documentary filmmaker, Penny Lane, who doesn't, uh, Elena just share a name with a niece of mine, but has also put out this amazing documentary called confessions of a good Samaritan where she donated one of her kidneys to a complete stranger and this film documents the whole thing. Uh, and then we'll hear some delightful music from a couple of my new favorite musical guys. They are a duo and they're called Johnny Franco and His Real Brother Dom. They came to Portland by way of Sao Paulo, Brazil, and they ended up on the Live Wire stage. So you don't wanna miss that. That's next week on Live Wire. All right, this week on Live Wire, our musical guest, let me tell you this guy's story. He was primarily making his living as a repairman at the Portland shipyards about 20 years ago. And way before that, he had had this whole life as a singer. He was the lead of this R&B vocal group called the Monterey's. And they actually had some hits. They had a song called, Pain is the name of your game. And can you dig it? But after a while, he kind of decided to hang it up as a professional musician. He figured, I'll just do this on my spare time, kind of as a hobby. And then one day in 2013, he was at like a jam session and this local drummer guy named Scott McGee showed up and they decided to form a band. And since then, they have toured all over the world. They've released three albums. This is not bad for a guy who decided he was done with professional music. We are very glad that that plan failed miserably. This is Ural Thomas and the Pain who joined us for the 20th anniversary show 20th anniversary of Live Wire, by the way, that at Revolution Hall in Portland, Oregon. Take a listen to this. 

  Ural Thomas and the Pain: How you doing? 

  Ural Thomas and the Pain: [Ural Thomas & The Pain perform "Gotta Say (I Love You)"]. 

  Luke Burbank: That was Ural Thomas and the Pain right here on Live Wire performing the song, Gotta Say (I Love You). That's from their 2018 album, The Right. All right, that's going to do it for this week's episode of Live Wire. A huge thanks to our guests, Kari Ferrell, Zak Toscani, and Ural Thomas, and The Pain. 

  Elena Passarello: Laura Hadden is our executive producer. Heather de Michele is our Executive Director and our Producer and Editor is Melanie Sevcenko. Our Technical Director is Eben Hoffer. Haziq Bin Ahmad Farid is our Assistant Editor and our House Sound is by D. Neil Blake. Ashley Park is our Production Fellow. 

  Luke Burbank: Valentine Keck is our operations manager, Andrea Castro-Martinez is our marketing associate, and Ezra Veenstra runs our front of house. Our house band is Sam Pinkerton, Ethan Fox Tucker, Ayal Alvez, and A. Walker Spring, who also composes our music. This episode was mixed by Eben Hoffer and Haziq Bin Ahmad Farid. 

  Elena Passarello: Additional funding provided byThe Marie Lamfrom Charitable Foundation. Live Wire was created by Robyn Tenenbaum and Kate Sokoloff. This week we'd like to thank member Naomi Nussbaum of Portland, Oregon. 

  Luke Burbank: For more information about our show or how you can listen to our podcast, head on over to LiveWireRadio.org. I'm Luke Burbank for Elena Passarello and the whole Live Wire team. Thank you for listening and we will see you next week.

  PRX.